Detransitioners: put the fatted calf away please.

[TinselAngel]

For some time I have been predicting that when our exes begin to detransition it will result in just another round of attention and sympathy causing further silencing of trans widows

www.theblaze.com/news/former-transgender-navy-seal-announces-de-transition-says-he-was-propagandized-and-pulled-into-a-cult-everyone-is-converting-all-these-kids-into-transgender#toggle-gdpr

100% the usual AGP story, tried on sisters clothes in adolescence, got married, had kids, successful career, late transitioner yada yada yada

profilesinpride.com/kristin-beck-coming-out-as-transgender-navy-seal/

If detransitioners are serious about atoning for the damage they have done to themselves and others,they need to have a long and serious period of reflection and learning. Swapping the affirmation of one side of the debate for the other does nobody any favours. Least of all us.

And we as a movement need to help this by being circumspect in our treatment of detransitioners and not acting like the love bombing cult that they claim to have left.

We would also do well to remember the binge and purge cycle that all wives of cross dressers are familiar with, and consider that if (when) this carries over in to “detransition”, their detransitioning is likely to at best, fluctuate.

So put the fatted calf away please.
Misogyny is still misogyny, fetishes are still fetishes, narcissism is still narcissism and none of these are magically cured in five minutes.

This is why, at Trans Widows Voices we have to hold the line, and take a position that people on “our side” have already called “harsh” and “cruel”.If we laud one detransitioner as not like the other boys, we dismiss validity of the stories of the women and children in their past

Many people have slowly realised that we were right when we told them that their platforming and lauding of so called “reasonable transexual allies” excluded women, and sure enough those allies proceeded to gradually show us exactly who they are.
For the love of the goddess let’s not make the same mistake twice.

I think as with the platforming of the "reasonable transexual allies", the rush to centre detransitioners is caused by people's desire not to appear transphobic. This desire is so strong people don't stop to think about whether its consequences are actually beneficial for everyone concerned.

I wonder if people who are keen to support detransitioners would be better trying to do it at some kind of collective level- eg encouraging fledgling detrans organisations, campaigning for better healthcare, rather than championing them as individuals. It was partly these people's relentless individualism that got them into the mess in the first place and I can't see how encouraging that, helps.

From the Twitter thread:

Trans widows are always dismissed with that sort of “but”.

Our exes stories are always considered more valuable to the cause than ours are.

Bears repeating.

If I had a quid for every time people have said to me "trans widows' stories are important but...", I could pack my job in and do this full time.

As always you make some excellent points, and truly thought provoking ones. Which as we try to unravel this mess, is very badly needed.

Your mention above that even when we get down to the young female detransitioners - who will be automatically filed beneath the far more important people with penises, with louder voices and much sharper elbows, because plus ca change - transwidows will be even further down the pile is absolutely true. It is still placing the transitioners first and assigning greater importance.

I think women are likely to be the ones that support the organising of services if - and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen, but I fear it's naive to hope - we end up with a large group of distraught females with some very serious lifelong issues to manage. And I care about female people and about the damage this has done to many young females, and the potential impact this may have on a generation. I also care very much about the female people who are not thinking about this in the theoretical way I am with a couple of nice TQ+ friends, but have experienced direct, awful, lifechanging abuse as a direct result of this ideology and those who have enabled it. Many who did so with good intentions and concerns about looking good and nice, and how nice it felt to be nice and open minded.

I really do hear you Tinsel . You've worked bloody hard for those women who are some of those who have suffered the most in this. The women who have been excluded from refuges, denied support and care (by male centred and male pandering resources for women ) for rape, assault, abuse and have been forced to stay in lifethreatening relationships because they had nowhere accessible for them to take their trauma in case male people felt pouty that somewhere existed for females outside of their control... and the women who have suffered rape, assault and fear through being locked up with male offenders in order to soothe the male person's ego are others I'm ready and waiting to help women's services to be built for. And not ones bloody run and controlled by those born with penises either.

Yes, I think it's very common for people to think along the lines of, well if a transwoman thinks women's voices are important and women's spaces are important and we should be listened to, then what greater testament do you need? It appears automatically more important than the women who own the spaces in the first place.

Likewise when they do transition. If their stories are revealing, exposing the propaganda, or the sexism, then what greater indictment can there be? They are automatically more credible, than the casualties of their behaviour. Despite their behaviour being characterised by manipulation, coercion and deceit.

"I know they're generally dishonest about everything, but on this one thing where they agree with me, I choose to believe them"

They are automatically more credible, than the casualties of their behaviour.

Echoing again the deep, unconscious sexism of society as a whole, that anything said or done by someone born with a penis bears more weight and value than by someone born without.

Reverse mansplaining. It isn't really valid until a penis owner (past or present) has confirmed it. Like that awful mention last week of a woman being scolded by a man for talking about her rape ffs, and him telling her she must say 'alleged rape'. It was her bloody body but she was not permitted to judge the male's actions herself without independent, verified corroboration.

Which is why I was roundly condemned by many women when I refused to cooperate with a male detransitioner who wanted to "write about trans widows".

😧

Bloody hell. When you think you've heard it all....

I'm sorry Tinsel, that's awful on multiple fronts.

I saw that unfold in real time and couldn't believe what I was seeing, feminists centring a man over you because he is 'more useful to the cause'.

It's difficult to explain how triggering that was, given my past experience.

I agree with TinselAngel that this would be more productive and I have been involved in doing this: "I wonder if people who are keen to support detransitioners would be better trying to do it at some kind of collective level- eg encouraging fledgling detrans organisations, campaigning for better healthcare, rather than championing them as individuals. It was partly these people's relentless individualism that got them into the mess in the first place and I can't see how encouraging that, helps.

I also agree with FurryDandelionSeekingMissile that in some cases the cycle of transition-detransition-retransition (rinse and repeat) can be compared to "addictive behaviour" and that initial "love bombing" followed by a drop in attention can lead to "retransition".

The barrage of hatred from trans activists towards detransitioners who question the wisdom of "physical transition" or talk of "transgender ideology" must also have a bearing on the decision of some to "retransition" and sheepishly return to the fold bleating condemnation of evil, transphobic TERFs and "GCs"?

I do not feel qualified to to comment on the type of people who have caused so much suffering to Trans Widows and do not want to bring them into this conversation.

There are some other challenges for detransitioners that I don't think have been mentioned that relate to "collective support organisations", the "gender medicine industry" and what "detransition" actually means when someone has undergone major, irreversible body-modification.

The following is primarily about a) homophobia and b) mental vs physical "transition" and "detransition":
> homophobia-motivated transition (mental and physical)
> transition-regret (mental and physical)
> the challenges of mental-detransition and physical-detransition.

I've been watching this "reaction" video by Shape Shifter, on a a 1985 US documentary "What is my sex?" and just got to the part about 30 mins in where two completely unrelated but very important points are made: one related to "physical detransition" and the other to "mental transition".

"What is my Sex? Autogynephilia Transsexual Transvestite 1985 Documentary"

(If you don't know who Shape Shifter is, read to the end because there is a third "detransition" issue.)

You have to watch this video from a few minutes earlier than the key points for context, so the link takes you to this short story:

This section is about a homosexual guy whose tragic story is very similar to Ritchie Herron's. He went under the knife but was already regretting the decision as he was going under the anaesthetic. He tried to tell them to stop but he couldn't speak and it was too late.

He had paid $8K for the surgery but would need to find $20K for "reconstructive surgery".

Shape Shifter: "But I thought this was irreversible. Reconstruct what? This is just crazy. Honestly, this is just really sad, because it hits close to home."

The closing comments of the narrator are about the irreversibility of surgery: "But no surgery can restore functioning genitalia."

Then we go back to an interview with Dr Paul A. Walker, PhD, "Gender Specialist".

The narrator asks: "Why would some find it more acceptable to be transsexual than homosexual?"

Dr Walker starts to answer, "Many research studies have shown the kinda bias . . ."

Shapeshifter stops the video to comment: "So they just said, like, "No surgery can restore functioning genitalia" so they cannot give you functional genitals. Like, literally, there it is, right there. So I don't know if in the documentary we are going to see transmen claiming, "Everything works just fine, works just like a real thing. Everything went fine, no complications." So why can't he get phalloplasty then? Cos it doesn't work!"

(I know that there are "surgical regret" phalloplasty ops being done on males but it should be obvious that they are not going to achieve a "reversal" to original anatomy and function.)

Back to the documentary and Dr Walker: "Many research studies have shown the kinda bias . . . going on here. Because transsexualism is considered a medical problem (shrugs). It's treated by hormones, it's treated by surgery, and therefore has that "medical legitimacy". Homosexuality still, among some people, is considered a moral problem, a religious problem, it's sinful. Transvestism is considered a psychiatric problem. So if you had your choice between having a moral problem, a psychiatric problem or a medical problem, you would rather label yourself with a medical problem."

Shapeshifter: "So pretty much, some people transition because of homophobia. Because "medical condition" sounds less harsh than "being gay". That sucks. But it makes sense. I mean, looking back, I was so homophobic that I thought the same way."

If ever there were a better illustration of why we need the LGBA as a Support Organisation, including perhaps for homosexual detransitioners. Nearly 40 years after this documentary was made, people are still electing to have their genitals surgically removed to "trans away the gay" due to homophobia.

This comment by Dr Walker about motivation for surgery is interesting: "Transvestism is considered a psychiatric problem. So if you had your choice between having . . . a psychiatric problem or a medical problem, you would rather label yourself with a medical problem."

I am resisting the temptation to divert into further discussion of that aspect.

=======

Another "detransition issue".

Shape Shifter is a gay male who has had disastrous genital reassignment surgery with appalling complications that have only got worse after numerous "revisions" and "repairs".

He has "transition regret" and says that he has "detransitioned mentally".

However, he has also had so much irreversible "Barbie doll" cosmetic surgery that he is "stuck".

In a previous video he explains that his therapist keeps telling him he should "retransition", ie. mentally, because he "looks like a woman" and cannot detransition (physically):

"Detrans Man Gets Pressured into Retransition"

There are "detransitioned" females facing similar challenges: unrelenting hatred and attacks from the "trans community", transition-regret (sounds so cool, calm and collected but surely equates to PTSD in some cases?), medically-induced illness and physical disability, "stuck" being perceived as the opposite sex.

The female "retransitioner" who TinselAngel mentioned upthread is included in this article along with Sinead Watson but the case of Debbie aka Lee Harries - and the photo - illustrates these issues better IMHO. In this case the background is not homophobia but being physically abused and raped by her father when she was a child. I have left out further details of those incidents in the copy and paste below.

"The detransitioners: what happens when trans men want to be women again?"
Laura Dodsworth meets the individuals whose stories are rarely told
Sunday Times, July 12 2020

Lee, 62

(Extracts)

"I transitioned when I was 44. I thought I’d be a different person as a man, happier and more confident, but my life was still screwed up. I saw a counsellor for five years, which helped me understand why my life has been so complicated. I thought I wanted to be male. But how would I know what it’s like to be a male? I’ve never been one. I can’t be. I’m an approximation of a male on the outside, but really I’m a woman on testosterone who has had surgery. This is just my opinion, and other people can have their views, but I don’t think there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body. I think that the causes often begin in childhood."

"I hated my breasts and couldn’t wait to get rid of them. I know a lot of trans men bind, but I didn’t because you can’t exercise in the gym with a binder, they are very uncomfortable. So I had a mastectomy a couple of months after starting testosterone. Within a couple more years I had a hysterectomy and ovariectomy, prosthetic testicles put in and a metoidioplasty, which is supposed to make your clitoris look like a small penis. In reality mine wasn’t big enough, just quarter of an inch. I ended up having a vaginectomy. Then I had a phalloplasty. They took skin from my arms. The scars are still prominent. It’s a very serious and complicated procedure and I didn’t heal easily. I had to take antibiotics many times.

I’ve had a lot of counselling, and I came to this huge realisation that I regretted transition. I wish I could go back to how I was before I saw the gender doctor.

I thought I would detransition, but I’ve decided I can’t physically do it. My body can’t take it. I’m not sure I’d survive all the surgeries. I’d be battling my body for the rest of my life. I have to accept my body the way it is now. On the outside people see a little bloke. Inside I’m a traumatised little girl. But I’m more accepting of myself for the first time ever. I just wish I’d been helped to accept myself earlier."

Full article: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

Archived: archive.ph/soEUS

========

Something that bothers me about the GC/feminist "Wahey! A female detransitioner! Bring out the fatted calf!" reaction that TinselAngel refers to is the same thing that irritates me about the wholly ideological and selfish GC/feminist attitude of, "All transmen are welcome in women's spaces - because they are female!"

Part of the argument for female-only spaces is that anyone (apparently) male entering that space can cause anxiety, fear, discomfort, panic, etc. in at least some women and girls using that space. Not that that is the whole argument but it is part of the argument.

If we are genuinely concerned about the negative impact of (apparently) male people in female spaces, why would we be welcoming male-presenting females into those spaces? (No, I don't mean Butch Lesbians and vanishingly few have reported any issues.)

Male-presenting females on testosterone who want to be perceived as male are unlikely to cause problems (unless they are being arseholes and want to scare women) because they will opt for male spaces.

The "Detransitioners GC/Feminist Welcome Committee", virtue-signalling their GC/feminist credentials by egging-on male-presenting female-detransitioners to use female-spaces, needs to show more consideration for women who are not in their ideological bubble IMHO.

It seems to be a distorting crazy-mirror reflection of the "old school feminists" who are now criticised for inviting their "old school male transsexual friends" into The Ladies without any consideration for other women using those spaces.

Considering detransitioners individually and collectively, and there are going to be more of them, I think we should give a bit more thought to the signals we are giving out about "inclusion" of male-presenting female detransitioners. They are going to have to navigate a very difficult path and I don't think it helps to throw down the red carpet to areas where they might not, in practice, be welcome or where they might cause distress.

As far as male detransitioners are concerned, we already know that the hype about the risks to male transitioners in male spaces is a load of baloney, so any that are "stuck" presenting as female are even more not-our-problem than they were before they "mentally detransitioned".

Echoing again the deep, unconscious sexism of society as a whole, that anything said or done by someone born with a penis bears more weight and value than by someone born without.

Yes, even when people know the issue, even when they think they're aware of their own behaviour, even then, sometimes it's hard to drag their focus away from the man in the frame, and back onto the woman where it belongs.

So this is my ex, Chris/Kris Beck. I was his girlfriend from 2005 to 2010. And I have been Googling because I haven’t known what to do about this, and I came across this particular post so I decided to join. 90% of what he is saying is untrue. The VA didn’t coerce him, he was living as a woman full-time for a year prior to seeing a psychologist at the VA, he was also getting hormones off the black market - the whole story of being manipulated by CNN, it’s all bullshit.

I hope you can find some solidarity here, AliVee. TinselAngel who made the post does a lot to help the partners and ex partners of males who identify as trans.

Hi Ali. I'd hope it's obvious to anybody with half a brain that it's bullshit

Thank you! I’m struggling a little bit because the narcissism is so overwhelming. We haven’t even been together for a decade, haven’t spoken in 2 years after I finally blocked him everywhere (after he lied about starting to see his current girlfriend), and yet because I was with him right before all of this came to light, and people knew that I knew, everybody still is texting me, freaking out. The good news is that even though it ran in the news here it’s dying down. But, it’s just incredibly frustrating to have him walking around saying all of these things that aren’t true, but yet I am the bad guy because I keep trying to point it out to people. The reasons that we broke up were because he started to cheat on me with men and he wanted to go and live his life as a woman; when we were together he was “just” a cross dresser and that was fine, I totally supported it and wanted him to feel like he had a safe space. He told me that his first wife hated the cross dressing and that he felt super alienated and that nobody loved him, so of course not seeing that this was a way to draw me in and manipulate me, I came riding in on my white horse trying to save the day. Anyway, point is, he was living as a woman long before any of the people he’s accusing of turning him, even met him. Apologies for the book, but I think this is the community that will understand what I’m trying to say, it’s hard to talk to regular people about this, lol.

You might find it useful to read the women's testimonies on the Trans Widows Voices website

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

And also the Trans Widows threads here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4236287-trans-widows-escape-committee-5-and-so-it-continues

That's the current one but there's links to the old ones

Also this is the trailer to an upcoming film about trans widows

m.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAlvw_kAHs

All this should show you that you're not going mad and that many of us have been through similar things

Thank you! Going mad is exactly how I’ve been feeling. I will look into the links and the YouTube movie. So glad you all are here.

OMG THAT MOVIE IS ME. 😭😭😭 All those words are my words. I wish I had known that it was happening, I would’ve absolutely wanted to participate. I never participated in Chris’s book Lady Valor, or the bullshit documentary, because I knew that they would be full of lies, and they were. But now, now I wish I could participate.

You could contact Vaishnavi, it might not be too late.

You know how ‘Gender Dysphoria’ isn’t one thing?

(see the 4th Wave Now article by Blanchard and Bailey on that topic but I reckon most of us will be very familiar with that concept already)

Well, If the motivation to/reason for transition is different, then the detransition is surely going to be different too?

In which case, Shapeshifter and Ritchie are not the same type of detrans as the subject of this thread (Chris is far more like the Jan Morris/Katy Tur /Stefánie Faludi types we’ve discussed recently) and the ROGD transmen (now reidentified young women) are different again.

I agree that supporting detrans people at an organisational level or supporting the emerging handful of professionals working with detrans people is probably the healthiest way forward for us and them (and supporting strategic legal action where appropriate. Certainly in the UK the NHS needs to be offering some sort of detrans support/supervised medical pathway).

Welcome @AliVee! I suspect you have found your people here!

What a strange and unenviable position you are in, dragged back into your ex’s dramatic vortex so suddenly after a decade of separation
I don’t know why I’m still surprised when stories like yours are told, crikey knows there are a lot of them about.

There is so little space for trans widows (or even slightly doubtful female partners) to tell of their own experiences (especially if there are children to consider) that it’s going to take the public a long time to see the whole picture. Hopefully Vaishnavi’s film will help a lot when it comes to joining up some dots.

You could always write your own book Ali, now that your ex is back in the news!

FWIW I expect this particular ‘detrans’ story is actually more akin to the familiar binge/purge cycle that many male late life transitioners exhibit, just described using 2022 language instead of the old TV/TS lingo.

As regards detransitioners, I think the push should be for proper follow-up care from Gender Clinics. Ideally better gatekeeping will come in & thus reduce the risk of it happening; but there’s a need for ongoing support & care that arguably could be managed via Gender Clinics - eg ensuring TM are invited for smears & having nurses there do them so there are no issues over misgendering etc. Then keeping a check on hormone levels; doing DXA scans as indicated… & then if people want to detransition, providing therapy, safely weaning them from cross-sex hormones etc. And keeping following them up even after that, even if it’s a 10-min annual phonecall. All of which will require significant investment; but I think it ought to be part of the service redesign that’s going on in NI [don’t think they’ve published decision yet] & for paeds in England. Absolutely umpteen other areas of the NHS need enormous amounts of investment, but other services also needing funding doesn’t make the need here (to use the dread term) less valid. Of course, in the likely absence of proper provision; a dedicated charity - which could lobby for said provision - would seem next-best? A helpline; closely moderated fora & chat rooms (think B-eat, not 🧜); lots of online info & signposting.

It is absolutely not, however, up to any of us here - and most especially not transwidows or children/parents/siblings of [de]transitioners! - to provide any of this. I can understand if there are women who’d want to be involved - the mothers of [de]transitioners perhaps being the most obvious example. Really Susie Green & the Webberleys & their ilk should be made to create & fund such a thing as penance; but sadly that’s not terribly likely.

@Blister
It does hurt to lose a friendship; but someone who is so selfish & so cruel as your unfriend is not a true loss, for all it might (because these things are tricky & tanglesome) cause you to grieve a while. You deserve better; & unless this individual were to make a complete, unqualified & fulsome apology coupled with a permanent change to their behaviour going forwards - they don’t deserve your friendship. How much is already under that rug? How much have you been expected to put up with because it’s just “how they are” or they’re “having a tough time/are stressed”? How many things have they done to make it clear that you aren’t terribly important - but you must be prepared to dance attendance on them at all hours? Are they prone to lying? Because that’s so very exhausting without anything else. You are worth more & you deserve better.

@AliVee am so sorry you’ve had need to find this space, but very glad you’ve now done so; & hope you find it helpful & healing. @TinselAngel is an absolute force of nature - it’s thanks to her I was able to explain to (horrified) Liberal Democrat canvassers for the last London elections that the “spousal veto” was not at all what they’d been told at their Conference by the “lovely” TW “whose wife wouldn’t let her transition” and why no-fault divorce coming in didn’t remove the need for it. They’d both mouths like the Blackwall Tunnel by the time I’d explained just a few things; & while she said she wanted to do more research & had questions for the Party Leadership, the more senior canvasser may have, um, achieved enlightenment, right then.

I'm a feminist and I have way more sympathy for detransitioners than trans widows.
I do agree that the fatted calf thing isn't right , it feels like 2 sides of the same coin.