Detransitioners: put the fatted calf away please.

[TinselAngel]

For some time I have been predicting that when our exes begin to detransition it will result in just another round of attention and sympathy causing further silencing of trans widows

www.theblaze.com/news/former-transgender-navy-seal-announces-de-transition-says-he-was-propagandized-and-pulled-into-a-cult-everyone-is-converting-all-these-kids-into-transgender#toggle-gdpr

100% the usual AGP story, tried on sisters clothes in adolescence, got married, had kids, successful career, late transitioner yada yada yada

profilesinpride.com/kristin-beck-coming-out-as-transgender-navy-seal/

If detransitioners are serious about atoning for the damage they have done to themselves and others,they need to have a long and serious period of reflection and learning. Swapping the affirmation of one side of the debate for the other does nobody any favours. Least of all us.

And we as a movement need to help this by being circumspect in our treatment of detransitioners and not acting like the love bombing cult that they claim to have left.

We would also do well to remember the binge and purge cycle that all wives of cross dressers are familiar with, and consider that if (when) this carries over in to “detransition”, their detransitioning is likely to at best, fluctuate.

So put the fatted calf away please.
Misogyny is still misogyny, fetishes are still fetishes, narcissism is still narcissism and none of these are magically cured in five minutes.

This is why, at Trans Widows Voices we have to hold the line, and take a position that people on “our side” have already called “harsh” and “cruel”.If we laud one detransitioner as not like the other boys, we dismiss validity of the stories of the women and children in their past

Many people have slowly realised that we were right when we told them that their platforming and lauding of so called “reasonable transexual allies” excluded women, and sure enough those allies proceeded to gradually show us exactly who they are.
For the love of the goddess let’s not make the same mistake twice.

Excellent post. Thank you again TinselAngel, its not just that you have the guts to speak out, but that you have the ability to analyse the situation so clearly in the first place.
I can't speak freely here so will leave it at that.

I’ve got to say, I love the way you give me a good slap around the face to bring me to my senses when I start to become emotionally manipulated.

Definitely!

I agree with @nilsmousehammer re the gulf between this sort of man and some of the young women - Kiera Bell is the obvious example. She seems pretty clear eyed about the failings of the system for young people, while taking responsibility for her own 'brashness'. 'Love bombing', no - practical support to help highlight the issues and hopefully rectify them, yes.

@TinselAngel
i saw your tweet.
Haven't rtft but can I ask do you distinguish between male and female detransitioners? Or between detransing males with internalised homophobia and those who have what I euphemistcally describe as a Special Interest?

Yes. This.

I made sure that I noted it in this consultation submission that closes tomorrow that those young people detransitioning need as much support as possible from clinicians.

I have watched with great concern the tweets from Sinead Watson this month. She is so bravely trying but she needs help herself. I have been thinking about the solution, I am hoping that Dr Cass will force the clinics to have ample services for them.

There are many things we can learn from the experiences of these young people as to how to support them. I see them as different to the mature aged male transitioners.

Do you tinsel?

@WearyLady "And without acknowledgement of the hurt done to you, do you still want this person as a friend"

It was a friendship. These are always difficult to lose... but honestly, I think the friendship isn't worth saving. I think it'll go back to being one sided just there'll be no issue to show the one-sided-ness

I'll also add that at this point we have a lot of bitter experience that anything set up to meet the needs of female people (and considering that transitioners have been statistically the massive majority they are likely to form the majority of detransitioners too) will very quickly find a group of male people shouldering their way to the front and demanding that all resources, attention and care are refocused to them. And if that bounces females out of the service, well they're only females. I would expect resources for detransitioning females to be hit this way too.

sorry, that should say in the massive majority FEMALE

A powerful post tinsel. But please let's never abandon the thousands of children, teenagers and young adults who have been gaslit by these toxic groups and adults. We have collectively failed to safeguard them from harm and as nils pointed out, they will no doubt be at the bottom of the pile in getting any support when they finally realise what's been done to them.

I think that while males and females transition and detransition for very different reasons there are some similarities in how we should respond to detransitioners of both sexes.

I was at the launch of the (I think now defunct?) Detransitioners Advocacy Network back in 2019. Of the young female detransitioners who spoke there I know of two that he retransitioned.

This is one of them:

twitter.com/TobyJPick/status/1588534315721584640?s=20&t=ns1-h8ove1VU4rO1Gdm3mw

My experience of listening to female detransitioners is that they have much to learn from us, rather than the other way around. I've also noticed them hopping from one gang (trans) for another (GC) with no period of reflection in between. We don't do them any favours in enabling them to do this because it discourages them from reflecting on what it was about them that got them into the mess in the first place.

I also worry that we still have heard virtually nothing from lesbian trans widows who undoubtedly do exist. The detransitioners need to reflect on what if any damage they have caused to partners, just like our exes should.

Here's one lesbian trans widows story

www.transwidowsvoices.org/post/lizs-story

Sheila Jeffreys was talking about lesbian trans widows in in Gender Hurts in 2014, it's not something I'm just making up.

they will no doubt be at the bottom of the pile in getting any support when they finally realise what's been done to them.

Trans widows will be beneath them in the pile.

Yes, agree with all this.

I care about girls who detransition and children in general. Grown men who transition and detransition are of no interest to me and I couldn't care less about them! Sorry not sorry.

Thanks, @TinselAngel That's what I was after.

I note the reminder about lesbian transwidows. That must feel like a double (triple?) betrayal - of the relationship, of being an out lesbian and being a woman.
Clumsily expressed but I hope you understand me.

💯
I wanted to use the bullseye emoji but as usual I don't know how to find it! 😂

You make good points Tinsel.

I tend to agree that there seems to be a jump from one group to another. When the reality is probably that they need lots of time to deal with their issues and given time in general.

And that there will be similarities between the two groups as adults.

Do you think there is a way to support those detransitioners and trans widows?

Yes, you make good points. I still have barely heard any trans widow voices outside of MN or the trans widows website.

Do you think there is a way to support those detransitioners and trans widows?
How to support detransitioners is not my focus. It's like you're asking me "won't somebody think of the perpetrators?"

Male detransitioners should be heard and listened to as they serve as a cautionary tale to any other man thinking of going down that route. Very strange that we want to discard them.

If all you allow are stories of positive transitions and female detransition, men (with AGP) will continue down the path of transition. The fact that so many try to cover up the existence of AGP has led many men down this path of transition.

I don't have any sympathy for reformed gang members, but I believe that their voices are important in combating gang violence. I see no difference with male detransitioners.

No reason at all they should be your focus, for sure!

Or, indeed, of feminists in general. I guess there's probably an overlap of some feminists and some concerned with safeguarding youngsters and supporting those damaged by gender ideology - especially on a parenting site. The focus of some regular FWR posters is mainly informed by concerns for their children or other young family members.

I don't have any sympathy for reformed gang members, but I believe that their voices are important in combating gang violence. I see no difference with male detransitioners.
They don't suddenly become truthful just by saying the magic words "I am detransitioning".

What does detransition mean for an AGP anyway? Going back to stealing knickers rather than buying their own?

I still have barely heard any trans widow voices outside of MN or the trans widows website.
We'll have Vaishnavi Sundar's film coming next year.

This.

A crucial thing here is whether there is a social contagiant element to middle aged males transitioning. I don't think there is in the same way as with young people.

That is fascinating in its own right. Males transitioning largely in individualistic ways compared to big clusters of school girls...

That reminds me of nothing more than addict behaviour @TinselAngel — fall into addiction for whatever period of time, suddenly decide to change and throw yourself FULL-ON into something opposite and all-encompassing like, say, running (joining the gym, joining running clubs, getting a PT, buying all the gear, reading everything you can, optimising your nutrition for running, posting voluminously on forums, making it your whole life), then get recruited into an extremist religion by people who know how to make you think they can fill the void in your life, then eventually relapsing…

It could also be the story of someone trying to run away from themselves in different ways, however they might personally interpret their masculine-presenting, female-attracted, possibly dysphoric self, and eventually reconciling with it in the way they feel works for them.

Either way, they were using GC events and communities to escape something, and while it's not helpful for them to be encouraged to fling themselves headlong into the next escape by feeding them lots of positive attention, I also think it's unhelpful for us to immediately focus a lot of attention on a person whose motives are unclear and whose long-term commitment is uncertain. I don't think it's just AGP detransitioners that we should be cautious of, as some are suggesting. Many detransitioners aren't interested in aligning with GC groups anyway, and in the immediate aftermath detrans groups can support and advocate for new detransitioners just fine. If detrans women are still saying they're GC and interested in talking at GC groups etc. in say five years' time, then sure, why not, they'll have an interesting perspective, but one among many, not an extra-special one. I don't think it's healthy for GC feminism or for new detransitioners to put them up on a platform to speak just a few months after their dramatic conversion.

nothing to add, just a thank you to Tinsel for the preventative slap around the face

it's so easy to fall into prioritising the 'in' group and intentionally or not ostracising the 'out' group.

we need to be alive to this impulse in ourselves and fight it!

Thank you for all the thought provoking posts.