Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

I think we should stop making excuses for violent abusive men and misogynist culture. We should make no apologies for confronting misogyny wherever it is. Mens feelings are not more important than womens safety.

Yes. And it needs to be made clear that an absolute condition of them remaining here is accepting the equality of men and women as set out in UK law and that they will not remain here if they don't. If you want to live in another country then you must respect their cultural norms and laws. Then enforce it.

This is the only way it can work, in my opinion. It should be absolutely clear that, e.g. yes, you can go to the Mosque and pray, but no, you can't have Sharia law - you have to abide by the law of the country where a woman's testimony is equal to that of a man's. You can have your country's food and clothes and festivals, but you cannot subject girls to FGM or marry them off against their will or stop them from going to school etc. You can disagree with gay marriage, but you can't kill gay people. If you cannot abide by the norms and laws of the country, don't come here.

Some countries are absolute hell for women and girls and I think it's fair enough to say that we want to preserve a way of life in this country that is much more favourable to women and girls. It's not perfect by any means, but it's better than Afghanistan or Iran or Pakistan.

White men of whatever background are more than capable of harassment and worse but, this was the best part of 20 years ago, I have never been harassed as badly as I was in Pollokshields, Glasgow when I worked there, by Muslim(mostly Pakistani men.) The scale and intensity of it unreal. And yes I also knew plenty of lovely and respectful Muslim men there too but every time I went out for lunch it was like the running of the bulls. I even ended up with a stalker. It wasn't just young men either. It included middle aged and elderly men many of whom had just left the mosque opposite or were going to there. I had an incident or two pretty much every lunch time or when going home.

I can totally believe that othering plays a part but I believe that culture can too. I don't know why it's so controversial to say that some cultures are more misogynistic than others, though few if any deserve a "well done" badge.

I agree with you completely. I don't see how you've understood my post as making excuses for misogynistic men or cultures?

I got bored with people excusing violence and sexual assault of women by pointing to Saturday night binge drinking culture in 2019.

Pray cease.

Spot on. This post hits the nail on the head.

Well, this is certainly far more likely to happen with the immigrants we had from other European countries because due to shared history and cultural development and values from common sources and regular exchange of such over thousands of years, there was in general a far smaller adjustment for the immigrant to make because our shared roots of culture and history are generally aligned. But apparently immigration from countries where the majority of people share our basic worldview about human rights etc was a bad idea.

No, we need to understand why and how and who and when and all the other specifics. How does it help women to be all handwavey and just say 'men' are the problem? How does that enable us to police neighbourhoods, identify vulnerable groups, protect the vulnerable? If we say 'any man could be a problem' then we are doing basically nothing to understand the problems. And if we don't understand the problems then we can't do anything to solve them.

We need to be able to say "in X situation, Y people are vulnerable, and Z people are the perpetrators." If we're too scared to do that because it turns out, as in Rotherham and Rochdale, that Z people are Pakistani Muslims, then we're turning a blind eye to abuse and betraying the victims.

Again, I don't see how you've taken my post as looking to convey that. British men's attitude to women and girls is abhorrent, and has got worse in my lifetime. No question. And is something that we (and I mean british men as a class) bear rather more responsibility for. The corollary of that is it's something we're better places to change.

They do it because they know no-one (i.e other men) will stop them

I'm sure you can't. I also find that I can't smell my bad breath. Best to accept the judgement of the people brave enough to tell me and to go and brush my teeth. Especially if multiple people tell me so.

One difficulty with this, aside from the people here who have just been lost track of and the lack of resources, is that it wouldn't work for British born people. It's not all first generation incomers, for want of a better word, who are treating women as lesser.

I agree with all that. But the OP was specifically identifying an uptick in immigration and suggesting that was a problem because of cultural differences, when the most harm is done by the simple fact there are more young men. I think the premise that these cultures are so much worse than our own, when, as others have recognised, that's a nuanced question, and second, when our own mores are plummeting day by day, is iffy.

I also spend a large part of my time as a young woman in Paris and share your experience. I posted this on the other thread. -

To be honest it's not something I think about very much but if we recognise that the human rights of women are lesser than those of men in the Middle East, even just focusing on the Quatar and the World Cup , and the fact that so many people on these boards have expressed that it shouldn't shown in schools because of those violations, it is some extreme cognitive dissonance to say that women who have experienced the same misogyny from immigrants from the same region are racists and should not even be allowed to discuss it.

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By focusing on “not all men” and “white men are as bad (as bad as what?) ” avoids identifying all of the problems after stops a discussion. It just shuts us up as of course it isn’t all men but there are certain men/groups of men that are a major problem and if we can’t identify them then we can’t change and protect someone and girls.

I went to Turkey with a group of women about 5 years ago and we travelled around and it was a bloody nightmare. It was constant, it was physical, hands between my legs etc etc. I’ve never experienced that kind of constant abuse in the U.K. to be honest.

I think how the country deals with it matters too. I live in a very multicultural part of a city in the Netherlands. There are people from all over, but lots of Turkish/Moroccan immigrants and I feel very safe here. By contrast I was in Paris with a very similar (on the face of it) demographic and it was horrendous. And I know other people who have had issues in Belgium/France. I think the differences could be:

1. demograpic. Where I live there are lots of families etc. yes there are groups of young men, but also young families, older women, older men etc. Also its very mixed - not just people from one country/culture
2. The gemeente put a LOT of effort and money into community cohesion. They will fund community events etc if you can demonstrate it will bring different groups together
3. I think maybe (no offence to the French here) but the Dutch in general have a different attitude to what constitutes sexual harassment within male/female relations etc than the French. Maybe that stronger line rubs of a bit on newcomers
4. To become a permanent resident you have to go through a cultural orientation programme which includes attitudes towards women/gay culture

I don't want to say everything's perfect - it's not and the Netherlands isn't some feminist utopia. Maybe I am just very lucky in my experiences but there does seem to be a difference.

I do know that groups of (Moroccan) men hissing (why?) at women as they walk past is a thing, especially in parts of Amsterdam. And women hate it and complain (rightly). They had to put up big posters at one point telling men not to catcall. But actual physical groping/mobbing in other European cities and the UK is at a whole other level.

I think maybe (no offence to the French here) but the Dutch in general have a different attitude to what constitutes sexual harassment within male/female relations etc than the French. Maybe that stronger line rubs of a bit on newcomers

Just picking up on this.

The UK has a known and recognised issue with institutionalised misogyny within the ranks of the police force.

I think you're missing the point. Of course there are cultures worse than Western cultures when it comes to racism, gay rights, women's rights and equality in general. And there's a problem when members of those cultures come to the West and want to import their home cultures along with them. Of course that's going to be a problem for women and girls who live here.

I mentioned it way upthread, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali has researched this extensively and may, in fact, have the statistics you're looking for.

To become a permanent resident you have to go through a cultural orientation programme which includes attitudes towards women/gay culture
This is what we need. We don't, because "racist"; in fact, black and brown women get shouted down as racist for talking about misogyny in their own communities. (Labour party members can be particularly bad for this.) Only some people's lived experience counts, and it's not women's.

@lifeturnsonadime
Just picking up on this.
The UK has a known and recognised issue with institutionalised misogyny within the ranks of the police force.

I was thinking that was an issue - basically if you tolerate bad behaviour, or give the impression it isn't a big deal/a joke it always escalates. And I suspect that's what the UK police have been doing for years

It is all about othering. I was listening to a podcast today about Peter Sutcliffe. While he mainly killed prostitutes because he wanted to kill women and they were the easiest women to access, the police thought that he was choosing them because they were prostitutes.

And once he killed a woman who wasn't a prostitute, it changed the whole investigation. The police thought the prostituted women were less important, not worthy of respect and fair game. Not quite human.

That's exactly what men who assault women from other cultures do.

• basically if you tolerate bad behaviour, or give the impression it isn't a big deal/a joke it always escalates. And I suspect that's what the UK police have been doing for years

I think the misogyny within the ranks of the police force goes a bit further than tolerance. It is active.

One difficulty with this, aside from the people here who have just been lost track of and the lack of resources, is that it wouldn't work for British born people. It's not all first generation incomers, for want of a better word, who are treating women as lesser.

It would stop enclaves of these toxic cultures being increased further. And the laws should be enforced absolutely for everyone born in Britain also. Obviously then deportation is not an option but basically for our society to function all people who live in it should be told very clearly that misogyny and violence or abuse against women won't be tolerated, far higher penalties and absolutely enforce it at every level, for people of any nationality/ religion of whatever. Someone's religion is their private business. But if it conflicts with the law of the country you live in then you'd better keep your views to yourself or there will be legal consequences and punishments and the law enforced. Every single time. None of this "oh but their beliefs". Beliefs do not supercede the law. Proper enforcement and harsher penalties is what is needed, at all levels. But in terms of the influx of gangs of young men largely relatively new to UK life, it absolutely would make a difference if they knew they would be deported for this type of behaviour.