Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

I am really frustrated with the level of doublethink that means we simultaneously acknowledge that certain countries are shit places for women, and yet pretend that a refugee from such a country must have magically escaped all possible cultural conditioning from his home country, simply because he remained capable of wanting to leave it!

I don't know if this is still the case but when my husband did the Living in the UK test to get UK citizenship a lot of the questions were about women's rights, as if to make the point that we do have them.

I think this is a really important point.

There clearly is a phenomenon at play here. But I think the thread title presupposes that the problem is one with other cultures. I'm not sure that is a valid presumption when (i) there's no clear articulation of what those cultural differences are and (ii) the western world frankly needs to remove the plank from its own eye (or, more accurately, its men do). Is there any solid evidence that men from these 'other cultures' commit VAWG at a greater rate? When I see the face of an offender in the paper or on the news, it's usually still a white guy.

I think decent people having this discussion should bear in mind it's happening against a background of increased agitation against immigrants: a government using net migration figures to detract from a failing economy; and a right-wing press using a diphtheria outbreak to spread the old insinuation that immigrants=disease. I think conversations about make violence are vital, but any that focusses on the failings of these 'other cultures' risks skating on very thin ice at the moment.

I have to say, with the migrant crisis in 2015 I started to question the feminism of third wave feminists.
Migrant Women in some shelters in Germany were really vulnerable, with no separated showers and toilets. (I know, often there were keys that migrant women had to fetch from migrant men…) There were transgressions, mildly put. But you were not allowed to raise the alarm, because it was politically incorrect to infer that migrant men (like all other men) pose a risk to women. They were depicted in an absurdly idealized way by the 3rd wavers, some of them Green female politicians.
Then, when Cologne/Köln happened I was no longer surprised that some of those ‚feminists‘ framed the event as ‚the rebellion of the colonized against the colonizers‘. I wouldn‘t have expected anything less from that camp.

The UK is 87% white, btw. I would expect the majority of violent offenders to be white!

Ugh yeah I've been the subject of similar pastings so I know exactly what you mean. I bet I could tell you some of the user names that will come up, too. Ones you rarely if ever, see on a thread about any other issue.

It’s not the UK , it’s just England !

@PurgatoryOfPotholes aye. Whilst clutching their medical/engineering degree.

Is there any solid evidence that men from these 'other cultures' commit VAWG at a greater rate?

I don't know, but that's not really the issue being discussed. No one's saying that white men or British men don't commit VAWG. We know they do. But the issue being discussed is how groups of young men from, e.g. Pakistan or Albania, are presenting a specific threat to women in the UK. So, the grooming gangs would be a very good example. Or we could talk about forced marriage or FGM.

It feels important that we don't pretend that the countries these men come from, their cultures, values and even religions are not a factor in these cases. We don't know enough about what the specific factors are that are contributing, because we're afraid to look at these men, because we don't want to be accused of racism. And that means women and girls will continue to be harmed. Why are we putting men's feelings above women and girls' safety? Or is it not just men's feelings, but our own feelings that we are good anti-racists? What's more important?

I’ve been groped, leered at, catcalled, disrespected, aggressively pursued and treated like crap by white men from the UK, Italy and Spain.

I’ve been treated with respect and dignity by white men in these countries too.

I’ve been treated with respect by some men in Egypt, Dubai and Morocco and with disdain by others.

This is a specific type of man problem but not in the way you’re insinuating.

There are many, many white men in the UK who see women as less than human.

Yes. And it needs to be made clear that an absolute condition of them remaining here is accepting the equality of men and women as set out in UK law and that they will not remain here if they don't. If you want to live in another country then you must respect their cultural norms and laws. Then enforce it.

I got that stat from a government site It said:

87% of people in the UK are White, and 13% belong to a Black, Asian, Mixed or Other ethnic group (2011 Census data).

According to wikipedia, the same census found that Scotland was 96% white. Not found stats for just England yet.

Exactly.

It has always been naive for politicians to think that if you bring people from another culture that they will always adapt to British ways.

But if immigrants are not committing VAWG at any greater rate than British men (and I recognise that's an 'if'), it then boils down to a question about their behaviours not being worse, just different in some respects. I don't know exactly what those differences are (something about grooming gangs vs. British men acting alone springs to mind) but then the conversation is around those differences.

And without the premise that immigrant men are worse, then the nub of the problem (and I agree it is a problem) isn't 'more men from other cultures' then it's just 'more men'. And we don't really need the rider that they're 'from other cultures'. I mean, there's a valid conversation to be had around whether those cultures are better or worse than ours but (i) again, I don't think our own culture stands up to much scrutiny, at all and (ii) as I say, it not the core issue, is it?

I don’t agree that this is a universal thing with foreign men being abusive overseas. A few years ago I lived in Brazil and the local woman were generally very keen on foreign men partly because they behaved in a less sexist manner. I think we have to be honest that women are treated worse in some cultures and countries than others. If we are not honest about this we cannot improve things.

of course that doesn’t mean every man in that culture is a misogynist and every woman a victim but as a general rule woman are certainly treated worse in some places than others.

I think a lot of people are having these conversations but in groups they perceive as safe because of that fear of racism.

Personally my experience has been that the most damaging behaviour has come from people who genuinely believe that white people in general owe them because of negative behaviour against their ancestors by a specific group of white people. Perhaps they think it gives them a free pass to get some sort of revenge? I have no doubt this goes both ways and I've just seen the one side. It was terrifying to know that someone hated me for the actions, before I was even born, of someone who just looked a bit like me.

This does not mean you are giving up your own culture or values.

If your "culture and values" are incompatible with the equality of men and women set out in law in that country then yes it absolutely should mean making a commitment to give up those "values" as a condition of joining our society. This must become non-negotiable, and be enforced.

.

British ways? Fucking hell, have you been in any of our town centres, late on a saturday night, in recent times? Our 'British ways' are on the floor.

It's not just the message that 'all Western women are up for it' which is pretty common (when I was married into a non-ethnic community I was often told I was not like other Western women - realised it meant I was not sexually promiscuous as they expected women such as me to be). The other problem is that some cultures have pretty unpleasant attitudes to women anyway, for example the rape culture in India and the custom of punishment rape in parts of Pakistan (usually the punishment is for the family, the woman/women raped may have nothing to do with the original 'crime'), as well as the 'honour' culture some places have. So all that has to be addressed as well as the attitude to women in the West.

Indeed Banal. This reminds me of something that happened during the reign of ISIS. One fighter took a slave alongside his bride (Yesidi). She was miserable there, was beaten, they tried to force her to convert (not sure what else happened there). The neighbours took pity and offered to buy her as a potential wife for their son. They took her in, left her in Peace and with considerable risk for themselves ultimately managed to make contact with her kin and helped them get her out…
It is, really, a matter of individual ethics.

Though, many young males in a group, and without social control (by family structures…) is usually a recipe for desaster.

Indeed. I mean, I'm pretty certain that the number of young, single make refugees who have left countries with abhorrent treatment of women didn't do so for that reason.

I think IF it gets to court or comes to police attention, a white male is more likely to get a lesser sentence. If convicted at all. One of the problems with stats is that so many crimes go unreported and if reported the responses are uneven.

Forbidding citizenship and right to remain and so on unless you uphold values are only relevant if people are here legally and following all the right channels.

For women, if you came on a holiday visa years ago and overstayed or were trafficked you aren't likely to be quick to seek assistance when in trouble, especially if you have no English. Then those women risk becoming part of the problem.