Women and girls' sex-based rights

[StephanieSuperpowers]

Well, here we are...

Never mind exaltedelsie, I've found the other thread on it. Disappointed I missed it- I could have rolled up for that!

I agree with what everyone has said today.

Me too. Completely agree with this from lusmeri (@Merrylus )

but threatening to nuke it to shut women up when they are discussing an issue that matters to them isn't a good look. It's bullying by blackmail. The number of posters, mainly male, people I once respected agreeing that was fine if it preserved the site was really depressing. It's only a little internet forum, but I wonder whether people who are so lacking in principles in a small way are likely to be equally spineless out in the big wide world.

To be fair to J, I suspect a part of it is also that things moved on, the site doesn't mean to him what it did back in the day - does he even post any more? Now he is lumbered with this responsibility which he's moved on from coupled with the fact he worries it's making life harder for a group who do face real issues. And he feels responsible for that harm.

And the hoping the community would police people/consensus would be reached; isn't that what every discussion group wants? That the racist comes round to realising they are judging others unfairly, that the homophobe realises gay people just want to make a life with the person they love? It's that faith in the marketplace of ideas. It just doesn't always work out.

I think though making a single thread which is the only place these issues can be mentioned is possibly the least effective way to end up with that resolution. Not that I think anyone on that thread was suddenly going to reverse their core idea that you can't change sex, but most of us believe that there are consequences that flow from that...

But you know, he now has what he wants. We've been righteously chased off, the cancer has been cut out so in the end, the monopoly won.

he worries it's making life harder for a group who do face real issues. And he feels responsible for that harm.

Maybe I'm being dense but I'm not sure who you are referring to here.

As I get older and (slightly) wiser, I am increasingly frustrated by people who continue to be so utterly tribal about politics. Particularly in an era where I suspect the broad middle ground includes people of various voting records feeling increasingly horrified by public events. Sealing yourself off from debate or agreement because someone is a ‘vile Tory’ feels very Rick from the Young Ones for middle aged men. Much of the further right rhetoric is as appalling to many Conservatives voters as more left wing people but without any consensus building how do we ever move forward?

The site owner/top admin, I think.

I think a part of it probably is that he's mentally checked out a while ago. I think he will be glad to lay this burden down, and move on.

He

Drat.

He could have done that simply by saying 'too busy' and inviting others to take over. Instead he ranted and insulted, shut down debate while everyone's anger built up, let that loose into a single thread - and thereby ensured the single-thread solution could not work, flounced off for a year, then barged back to shout at everyone again.

Yes, I mean the site owner. I've seen another similar site owner just want to be done with it all and that was without an issue like this. It's like having to belong to a club/friendship group you've outgrown.

IIRC he moved to France a year or two ago, so has new priorities too.

But even if he gives over the board to a consortium of posters (he won't) that is not going to erase what has been said by others. It's untenable for a number of us now, I imagine.

I always wondered what his horse in the race was to make him so angry.. it was never anti trans rights and dignity, it was about the intersection with women's rights. It was never turning homophobic,, quite the opposite re concens for lesbians and their right to choose partners without being judged. It was trying to discuss people making choices, and how those impacted others. Which could.be seen to be inclusive of all groups, at a stretch.

I can only assume massive misogyny, which is sad. But apparently ok with a lot of people.

Anyway. Tempted to drop this into the old place to see if gay men's concerns are treated the same way as women's

I won't, but it's an interesting thought experiment

Gay Men's Network concerns re Tavistock and NHS gender care

isn't that what every discussion group wants? That the racist comes round to realising they are judging others unfairly, that the homophobe realises gay people just want to make a life with the person they love? It's that faith in the marketplace of ideas.

Absolutely. But that approach requires all participants to be willing to put their own ideas and preconceptions and all available evidence to the test, and to be willing to listen to other people’s points of view, and a trust in the good faith of the people you disagree with. It requires an acceptance of fallibility and an openness to the idea of changing one’s mind. All those things appear to be absent.

The consultation document which accompanies that is something I would urge anyone here with an interest in the direction the NHS is taking in regards to these issues, to have a look at.

I always wondered what his horse in the race was to make him so angry.

Impossible to know, since he didn't say specifically. But I do think (massive generalisation alert) that a sizeable number of men struggle to see women as being just as important as men. I read (I think glosswitch but my memory isn't amazing right now) that you can tell who is a man by who is important in a debate. There are several men known to me personally and online who are very exercised by the trans debate but have no interest whatsoever in any other aspect of what you might call women's areas - and that tells you that they know, in their heart of hearts, exactly who is a man and who is not.

I don't think that they're necessarily aware of it and would react angrily to it, but it's there. For some reason, men who simply aren't interested in women's rights can be very passionate about trans women's rights.

I think the problem with self policing is some posters decided that any debate was transphobic as we were questioning the right of trans people to exist (we weren't) or that we were saying all trans people were abusers (we weren't).

I remember how mad it got when a (female) poster went for me when I said men did not have periods and would not countenance that this wasn't transphobic. I was not sure how to deal with that sort of relaity denial cloaked as inclusion.

Yes some women choose to identiy socially as male or non binary but that does mean men can have periods, as that would magically make the human males able to conceive, gestate and bear young. Which, you know I pretty sure has not happened.

I was not sure how to deal with that sort of reality denial cloaked as inclusion.

Yeah, I find it confusing and disorienting as well. What are you supposed to make of it? It's obviously not true. But you have to pretend to believe it to be one of the good people. So is pretending to believe it a sign that you're prepared to be good and refusal to pretend to believe it a sign that you're set upon being bad, even though that's not good? And if you are prepared to be clearly bad on this issue, what other rules of goodness are you ready to break?

For some reason, men who simply aren't interested in women's rights can be very passionate about trans women's rights.

It's the perfect issue, you can pose as a progressive but rest assured it's not you who will have to give up any of your existing rights to make way for another group

Obviously I mean "that does NOT mean men can have periods" FFS. Why is there no edit bitton!

I've now read this entire thread. I can't recall who said it - sorry for that - but whoever it was who referenced Germaine Greer in The Female Eunuch got it spot on in my view. From memory, "It still comes as a surprise to women when they realise just how much men hate them." Not all men I know. But enough!

I would like to say I'm shocked by the misogyny displayed on the place we've just left. I'm not. It's a mostly left-leaning board in which users think of themselves - self identify if you like! - as liberal and progressive. But oh maaan, scratch the surface, whip away the veil, and they are nothing of the sort.

I'm actually very glad mumsnet isn't left-leaning. Good. I'm up to HERE! with the so-called left. I'm a refugee from The Left in general and The Labour Party in particular. I think Julie Burchill has it right. We owe The Left nothing. And women's rights aren't a left/right thing in my view. I have Tory friends as well as Labour, LibDem and Green. If they're gender critical then they're my sister or brother. This IS my hill. Because if refusal to deny science is bigotry and those who refuse to toe that line are castigated, outcast, cancelled, we're in a whole heap of trouble.

Sorry for the long post. I'll try to keep it down a bit in future.

And by the way, if you're finding the lack of an edit button difficult I suggest you hit preview before post. Then you edit before you post.

And another by the way, thanks very much for the welcome from mumsnetters wondering what the hell is going on! I've been a poster here for many years but I mainly lurk. I'm glad we've found each other.

Venceremos!

well said Lawls

This is a thread from over a year ago but just turned up on my timeline as someone linked to it in response to a tweet about males in women's changing rooms, and the helpful advice just to avert one's gaze in that situation. Trigger warning, it's written by a survivor of childhood abuse. I couldn't neglect to post it here having read it.

twitter.com/FemmeLoves/status/1412316271698448386?s=20&t=kTCT4Sf52E8wPw8Vi8TvuQ

well said Lawls

Thanks @DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry