Just despair - HOW do some women just not get it!

[Mynewchairhasarmrests]

Just finished a brilliant novel written by a female author about friendships, girlhoo, womanhood, and growing up as a girl. She was so absolutely on the money about what it’s like to be a young woman and the pressures of looking and acting a certain way, the awful way women are so often treated by men, the way women are portrayed in the media, how we are programmed not to recognise sexual assault and told its just boys having fun, and how we aren’t believed even if we do report it. Her anger and passion really came through and it was good, though depressing, to read someone telling it exactly like it is.

You know what’s coming. I then look on her social media. She’s a TRA. Signed a letter condemning JKR for being ‘anti trans’. Condemns Germaine Greer for being so wrong on trans issues.

I just don’t understand how these women can see the misogyny everywhere they look BUT the place where it’s in its worst, purest form - gender ideology.

Its like a glitch in the coding somewhere. Why can’t they see it? I have another friend who is on the board of a rape charity. We had long conversations about how shit it can be to be a woman. The misogyny everywhere. I was sure she must be GC. But no. A TRA. Doesn’t speak to me now she knows I’m a TERF.

I just don’t get it. Is it fear of societal disapproval? A reluctance to admit the liberal progressive cause they publicly embraced is anything but and that they’ve been had?

So..... you have made up figures. Why not use the current figures of UK prisoners to show what you mean? The numbers of transitioned male prisoners is out there and available.

Please use real live figures.

Yes. This study indicates that a high proportion of men will act as sexual predators if they think they can get away with it. Points to the conclusion that safeguarding does reduce the number of predators, no?

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html?amp

They don’t want to get death and rape threats, constant on line abuse and work opportunities taken away. They saw what happened to JK Rowling.
They post about it as in this age not saying something about EVERY issue is seen as being on the ‘bad’ side rather than having no opinion whatsoever or just wanted to keep somethings private.

If you want up to date real time figures to teach you basic maths, may I suggest you go get them yourself? I’m doing the equivalent of a maths textbook so I don’t need real figures to show you a mathematical concept.

In addition, our societal response hasn’t been to ban the existence of teachers, shut down all the schools and home educate children.

Are you saying that you consider these actions to be the equivalent of expecting single sex services to be single sex?

The conclusion should be:

Only 10 out of 5 million female population are murderers, whereas 8500 out of the 4.8 million male population. Hence, having a uterus causes less homocidal tendencies.

Your mistake is comparing between wrong groups. Apples versus pears.

For trans people you should compare the percentage of transmen who are sexual offenders out of the female prison population, versus transwomen in the male prison population.

No idea if there are any transmen in prison for sexual offences though...

Do you agree that transitioned male show that they commit sex crimes at a rate that is closer to males than females?

yes or no

The figures show that there is a higher rate of sex offenders in the trans prison population compared to the general male population. 40%-60% of trans prisoners are sex offenders compared to 20% of the general male population.

You're arguing that these figures don't tell us anything. No one is asking you for a maths lesson. We are asking you to explain why you think this statistic is meaningless.

There is one that I know of.

By the way, are you comfortable with a transitioned male who is a stranger to your daughter assisting your 5 year old daughter to get dressed and generally watching a group of 5 year olds get dressed?

Are you comfortable with a young girl being in a situation where they could be sleeping in a room/ tent with a male if appropriate procedures are not being followed on a girl guide camp? One that could walk into an open shower block without any questions to check on the girls in there?

Btw, despairing of people who think it is ok to force women, especially incarcerated women, to share facilities, incl a prison cell and showers, with any male person, however nice they are. Why would anyone force women into such a situation? Or do they love getting naked with male strangers you can't get away from so can't see the issue for others?

Or. Here is another one.

Are you comfortable with a naked semi-erect penis on a male who is sliding into a spa bath within one metre directly in front of and at eye level to either a six or a nine year old girl who is also naked?

What steps do you think the spa owners should be able to take to prevent such a thing from happening, if you are uncomfortable with it?

We ask these questions because these are the real life issues that 'our darlings' face in modern society.

If you cannot answer these questions with a definitive answer, why not?

I didn't say trans people were more likely to be sex offenders. I pointed out that sex offenders claiming to be trans are over represented in the prison population.

I'm not convinced that the majority of them are trans but under the principle of self ID it's transphobic of me to say so.

I suspect that many are sexual predators appropriating a trans identity to use gender distress as a mitigating factor at their trials in the hope of a more lenient sentence or they hope to be housed in the female prison estate. One can only speculate why a sexual predator might find that option appealing.

The challenge for TRA's is how to argue that self ID poses no safeguarding risk and simultaneously disavow the people who prove it does because their actions are inconvenient to your cause.

Your absurd suggestion that the only valid stats would consider sex offenders per capita of the population assumes that every sex offender is detected and convicted or that sex offenders would willingly admit their crimes for the purposes of accurate data collection.

There is one that I know of.

How many transmen are there in prison in total? If this transman is the only one, then the issue is the numbers are so low, it cannot be used to compare.
Also, in womens prison or mens? I have heard of one woman, not transman, held in male prison, but away from all male population and only because they were too high risk to be kept in the lower security womens prisons. Only mens prisons have high security facilities.

Btw, another incentive for men to self id as women, womens prisons have a more relaxed security setup as women are overall less of a risk.

Yes I did and you have left off the BBC analysis that basically says these figures (41%, 40%) could not be verified and there is no way to tell what gender any transgender prisoner is whether TW, TM or NB.

Okay, so 40% of transgender prisoners are sex offenders compared with 19% of male prisoners.

You still haven't explained why this statistic is meaningless to you.

@FOJN
I didn't say trans people were more likely to be sex offenders. I pointed out that sex offenders claiming to be trans are over represented in the prison population.

These are one and the same. Just written in different ways, over-representation= more likely. And you can’t tell they are over-represented with the figures you presumably quoted from somewhere. They’re the wrong data to deduct that.

I suspect that many are sexual predators appropriating a trans identity to use gender distress as a mitigating factor at their trials in the hope of a more lenient sentence or they hope to be housed in the female prison estate. One can only speculate why a sexual predator might find that option appealing.

Many is it? I suppose I should be grateful you don’t think it’s all. It’s eeerily similar to the “many economic migrants appropriate a refugee identity to use asylum seeking as a mitigating factor at the border in the hope of free housing and benefits. One can only speculate as to why an economic migrant might find that appealing” ….how much of your view is based on bias? Think about it.

Your absurd suggestion that the only valid stats would consider sex offenders per capita of the population assumes that every sex offender is detected and convicted or that sex offenders would willingly admit their crimes for the purposes of accurate data collection.

No, doing a per capita calculation does not assume every criminal is detected and convicted. I don’t think you even understand what a per capita calculation is as otherwise you would not have written such nonsense.

It’s standard procedure, it’s how you tell whether there is any over-representation or not. You literally cannot deduct or calculate over-representation by comparing the same statistic between disparate groups.

Isn't it convenient then that there is no population data on just how many transitioned males there are in the UK population....

I wonder why that is?

Still, there is enough information there to give an answer to the following question.

Do you agree that transitioned male show that they commit sex crimes at a rate that is closer to males than females?

yes or no

Because it tells us nothing about how likely transgender people are to be sex offenders compared to all people. (Btw, the 19% was all prisoners, not male ones). And as a % of prisoners, it gives us zero indication of scale. With no scale, how can we assess risk?

I just don’t think many women do get it, they don’t get the harms, and they are in a bubble where other female friends also don’t get it. I don’t think it’s fear so much.

I think this is because of:

• groupthink - it’s very, very difficult to critically think as an individual against social norms. We have become much more of a group think society, where terminology if you get it even slightly wrong marks you out as not as good in the group.
• lack of access to other thinking - Mumsnet is one of the only places where critical thinking takes place. It doesn’t happen in almost every single workplace.
• the harms to women are not obvious or ‘big’ enough. Not to most women walking around in a groupthink way. Trans agendas are shouting, screaming about the harms to them. Harms to women? Most women just have a vague recollection that some women don’t want to use changing rooms with perfectly harmless TW. This is despite some media coverage of real harms to women, but honestly this is still on page 34 or whatever, nothing headline.
• there is a societal reward for being a trans ally. And Holly Bourne has come out as autistic and been rewarded for that with greater recognition. (No judgement on that, but both being trans ally / autistic or other have real, tangible rewards in terms of sales and access to groups)

Pigeon chess time

any amount of semantics to avoid examining the basis of their beliefs

Wait, so you're arguing that sex criminals are not using trans identities as a way to mitigate their punishment/get placed in female prisons, but that they are genuinely trans?

Others are arguing that sex offenders are appropriating trans identities. You are arguing that sex offenders are genuinely trans.

You sound transphobic @Onnabugeisha

I just don’t understand how these women can see the misogyny everywhere they look

why would I when I am a single parent, in a very good job, dds are happy, thriving and incredibly ambitious.

oh and we are all happy, healthy and financially comfortable.

so no… I sure as heck don’t see “misogyny” everywhere. And I think to say you do, just dilutes the problems that do exist (that I just haven’t encountered)

Fascinating how much effort Onnabugeisha is putting into trying to rubbish that data. As if we have all sat around looking at it for a year waiting for someone to explain it to us.

Allies that pop up here are without any doubt the most patronising people that post on Mumsnet.