Just despair - HOW do some women just not get it!

[Mynewchairhasarmrests]

Just finished a brilliant novel written by a female author about friendships, girlhoo, womanhood, and growing up as a girl. She was so absolutely on the money about what it’s like to be a young woman and the pressures of looking and acting a certain way, the awful way women are so often treated by men, the way women are portrayed in the media, how we are programmed not to recognise sexual assault and told its just boys having fun, and how we aren’t believed even if we do report it. Her anger and passion really came through and it was good, though depressing, to read someone telling it exactly like it is.

You know what’s coming. I then look on her social media. She’s a TRA. Signed a letter condemning JKR for being ‘anti trans’. Condemns Germaine Greer for being so wrong on trans issues.

I just don’t understand how these women can see the misogyny everywhere they look BUT the place where it’s in its worst, purest form - gender ideology.

Its like a glitch in the coding somewhere. Why can’t they see it? I have another friend who is on the board of a rape charity. We had long conversations about how shit it can be to be a woman. The misogyny everywhere. I was sure she must be GC. But no. A TRA. Doesn’t speak to me now she knows I’m a TERF.

I just don’t get it. Is it fear of societal disapproval? A reluctance to admit the liberal progressive cause they publicly embraced is anything but and that they’ve been had?

To be clear there are predatory Trans people. But people tend to develop their views based on what they know. So if all the Trans people they know are nice, then they judge based on that.
And I have met Trans people, women and men, who seem very anxious, shy and with low self esteem. They do not appear a threat to anyone. They seem instead very vulnerable.

Also this: Fuck off and take the word feminism out if your mouths, all of you. Right, because there have never been factions in feminism and you don't get to care about women's rights unless you have the exact same definition of 'woman' as the OP?

Feminism is a reaction to the historic and ongoing disempowerment of female people because they are female.

If you want to change the meaning of Woman into a mixed sex group that's great. However, it's no longer the group for whom feminism arose.

I'm not saying that group of "people of either sex who align to cultural constructions of womanhood" is not valid. I'm not saying it doesn't have a big overlap with the concerns of feminists. I'm not saying we can't be allies.

I am however saying find your own words, because ours already meant something and when you take our words and make them mean something different, you appropriate a history that was never yours and in doing that you take away our power to tell our own stories and name what we need.

Disclaimer - I respect the feelings of people who are TERF-identified, because those feelings are real and come from a real place. I'm hoping to answer your question honestly because I think that you asked the question in good faith.

I support trans women and not because I fear being cancelled. As a woman (I'm 32, female, typically female at birth, in case anyone's interested) I have plenty of other things people want to hassle me for, and they can if they want.

I work for a charity which deals with transgender people from other countries where their gender identity puts them in direct danger of death and torture, so I've seen first hand that people don't do this for shits and giggles. I've also known plenty of them, and seen how they're not one conglomerate of identical threats, the way they're made out to be in many 'enlightened' texts. I also tend to go to places where I'm the only non-trans person IN the ladies' bathroom, and the experience has been nothing short of dull and uneventful.

At the same time, I "don't get the trans thing" myself. I don't think I ever will, but I don't think it's super important that I do.

I DO get why people see the whole business as a "movement" and a "threat" because I get what it's like to live as a woman since birth and experience everything that comes with that. I really do get that. But the "facts" that I'm presented with just don't match up to my frequent professional experiences.

I also strongly suspect that external actors are, in bad faith, using "the trans issue" deliberately to distract, destabilise, and disenfranchise women's rights movements from the inside. Because it's certainly working, and things that work this effectively are unlikely to be accidental in my experience. I do not trust that anti-trans movements are genuinely set up with the wellbeing of women like me in mind. It helps nobody, and I refuse to be taken in by it.

What people are like as individuals should have no bearing on whether they are treated as male or female in the few situations where sex is important.

How does this keep getting brought up? I think it's because people in general find it hard to conceptualise risk. It is hard, that's why we had so many people not wearing masks at the height of the pandemic etc.

I was chatting to someone who wholeheartedly believes TWAW. Turns out she is non binary (no pronouns given - don't delete me!) I spoke about prisons etc but she just feels that more harm is done to trans people by not letting them in. I am very fond of her so couldn't really argue much and although it didn't surprise me that was her position, it did that she believed it so wholehearted. And saddened me I suspect when she is older and has experience more of life that will change.

Her answer to everything was that "they are women". She just can't see past it so thinks they should be included. I also mentioned people physical reaction to males, even if they are not aware of it, and she said that noone should be excluded because of someone's past trauma. Really saddened me.

Yes, except writers/authors are public figures, to a greater or lesser degree (if your occupation is 'writer/author' you may find it a bit harder to get home insurance) so the repercussions extend a bit wider than the workplace.

Right.

So you admit there are predatory trans people.

How confident are you about the % of non-predatory trans people that you know. That is point about making blanket statements the way you have. It is exactly the same statement I have seen used to dismiss the % of males in the general population that are abusers.

I know very well that my own domestic violence abuser was well loved and well regarded in the community. He didn't appear to be a 'threat' to anyone either. And in his older years seemed very vulnerable too.

This is the whole fucking point!

And that is why using blanket statements such as you did is dismissing the reality to keep your own ideal reality alive.

So, do you think that it's fine to put Katie Dolatowski in a women's prison?

The thing is actually this whole 'let's make trans people a sacred caste and above scrutiny' is having the absolutely obvious effect of getting paedophiles / abusers who aren't trans flocking to 'transness' as a cover for their activities.

I mean look at Breslow and the other Mermaids dude who had contact with children with porn on his social media. All the rapists magically discovering they're trans once convicted so they can get into a women's prison.

Do some people really need a massive neon sign saying 'paedophiles and abusers WILL exploit any loophole you create in safeguarding'?

It's making life much more difficult for all the non predatory normal transpeople. I honestly think transactivism is making life harder for normal transpeople now. Some of them are speaking out and saying 'not in my name' but receive the same level of hate and vitriol for doing so as women so I can understand why it's difficult for them, plus of course it doesn't fit the media narrative.

And I have met Trans people, women and men, who seem very anxious, shy and with low self esteem. They do not appear a threat to anyone. They seem instead very vulnerable.

So what? Does safeguarding get ignored because you know a group of people you personally judge to be 'non-predatory' from your various degrees of knowledge about them.

Or can we just assume that the % of them in the prisons show that similar % of those males are just as predatory as the general male population and that the safeguarding processes should remain just as strong for them as any other male.

Nothing. Nothing good comes from making blanket statements that seek to make a group exempt from safeguarding or to paint them as being 'all good' and therefore nothing can be said about the ones who are dangerous.

If you are fighting for men’s rights to call themselves women to access women’s spaces then you absolutely do need to take the word feminism out of your mouth, because what you are doing is the exact opposite of feminism. You are a men’s rights activist and you should own that.

Trans identified males pose exactly the same threat to women as any other male. This has been evidenced time and again, yet for some reason people still cling on to the poor, oppressed, vulnerable narrative. Please catch up. Anyone who reads outside of the BBC, Guardian and New York Post knows this.

I do wonder if it ever occurs to women like Holly, or Emma Watson, or any of the other women signing letters and proclaiming their support from the rooftops, that it is not reciprocated? Do we see armies of trans identifying males marching for reproductive justice, or against violence against women? Only if they are making it about themselves, or complaining about ‘cis privilege’. These women bend over backwards to stand up for men they see as vulnerable and oppressed and don’t realise that most of them wouldn’t cross the street to stand up for them.

It's making life much more difficult for all the non predatory normal transpeople. I honestly think transactivism is making life harder for normal transpeople now. Some of them are speaking out and saying 'not in my name' but receive the same level of hate and vitriol for doing so as women so I can understand why it's difficult for them, plus of course it doesn't fit the media narrative.

100%. This movement isn't helping transpeople at all, and I have every sympathy with those adversely affected.

Me too, absolutely.

@ArabellaScott not sure I understand your point but I think we’re both on the same page - it’s very hard for people in public life to put their head above the parapet as the repercussions are huge, but equally for those people who work in occupations who put a lot of pressure on staff to “tow the line” the consequences could also be pretty devastating.

I understand why she would be reluctant to be openly GC - although she may not be GC at all 🤷‍♀️.

If you are fighting for men’s rights to call themselves women to access women’s spaces then you absolutely do need to take the word feminism out of your mouth, because what you are doing is the exact opposite of feminism. You are a men’s rights activist and you should own that.

I disagree with this. A men's right activist supports men in general. Someone who supports transwomen has a more expansive definition of what counts as a woman than you. They take themselves to be supporting women also.

When it was me, my thinking was along the lines of "trans women are proof that most of what society constructs as Womanhood is just cultural stuff that can equally exist in a male brain. By accepting trans women as valid we detach those constructions from female-hood and thereby weaken their hold on us. Since Trans women suffer just as much under patriarchy as we do, they must be friends to women not a threat. They deserve to be in our spaces for safety and solidarity and so they can raise their voices in support of us."

This is interesting, Flirts.

"what society constructs as Womanhood is just cultural stuff that can equally exist in a male brain" - yep - let's call this 'femininity' for ease of use.

"By accepting trans women as valid we detach those constructions from female-hood and thereby weaken their hold on us" - well, we can and should do that anyway. Of course TW are valid as people, people who are male with feminine aspects. Which is as fine as being male with masculine aspects (probably better actually) and as fine as being female with masculine aspects and as fine as being female with feminine aspects.

So - fem/masculinity can be completely decoupled from female/male biology.

"Since Trans women suffer just as much under patriarchy as we do, they must be friends to women not a threat." I would question this assumption. There are many types of 'suffering' that TW will not experience, and suffering will vary greatly between individuals. Who suffers will in many respects be linked to who is perceived as female, and who is perceived as "incorrectly" feminine, and how this bears out in society's attitudes to them. But of course we shouldn't ignore any suffering as a class.

If fem/masculinity can be completely decoupled from biology, then why is being feminine or masculine any indication of what body you 'should' have? Why do they want to take this decoupling and put it back again?

It's true that when people talk about 'women' they are often talking about "feminine people". And when you point this out, they cannot mentally unlink this from "being female".

Please could you clear this up once and for all, I am asking genuinely because it is never answered: What non-circular definition of 'woman' do you use/ does a 'person who supports transwomen' use?

Can you write it here please, so I know how to support trans women?
If you don't know, could you please acknowledge that?

On the "everyone gets DBSed" comparison the reaction was "but that harms noone but criminals, gatekeeping harms innocents". I really want someone who can be brutally honest with her to discuss it- as I say, I care about her so can't.

Gah! I'm just ranting now but it made me so sad (and yes, I'll be seen as the bad guy now with a whole big group of people I can't avoid). It is tye first time in the wild I've discussed it with someone so intelligent who can't see the other side at all and who wholeheartedly believes TWAW. Down to her very soul.

It's tough.

I think as we go on and as the truth begins yo filter into mainstream it will become increasinhly impossible for peopke ckaiming to be feminists to simply claim they didnf know and were to stupid to do some research.

This means that they are will fully and deliberately attacking us.

This betrayal we feel is strong, that we are fighting for the safety of all women and girls, and they are attacking women and imposing harmful things uponbus to gain /maintain status.

We know that the men they are trying to appease will never elevate them above other males and so they gain only by harming other women and children.

It's a deep betrayal made even harder because we have to recognise that they too are prisoners of the system but have chosen to be volunteer guards.

But if we have only limited ammo then let's aim truly at the men controlling the prison.

Aunt Lydias.

she said that noone should be excluded because of someone's past trauma.

Why not? I mean, it seems reasonable to me that if someone traumatises you, you should be able to keep them away from places that are private or where you're vulnerable. I bet this person is totally okay with all sorts of accomodations being made for others on the basis of their mental health, anxiety, etc. Why so suddenly cold-hearted when it comes to rape victims?

I agree. But I couldn't make the argument because it came down to "but it's harming tw to do that". And I wasn't comfortable pushing - I would have avoided the conversation entirely if I could have.

Beastlyslumber, I agree. These women are positively brimming over with empathy for males, but appear to have absolutely none for any woman who is traumatised by the presence of males. Not only have they no empathy, they are often actively cruel and spiteful towards other women. It’s so hard to understand.

@InPraiseOfBacchus Thank you for a very interesting and informative comment.

I actually agree with you re the taking up of an anti-trans cause as simply another front in the political "culture wars". Some of the right-wing people are not in favour of my kind of progressive feminism.

I have to admit to finding it hard for a man to say "I feel like a woman". My womanhood is not a feeling. It's a lived mental, physical and social experience. How can anyone else, especially male, imagine how that feels? How can you anticipate, react to and handle periods when you have never and will never have them? I have spent years fighting to be taken seriously as a woman and not dismissed as hysterical or having said period - how can men now tell me that is meaningless to being a woman???

Finally, data. I understand the threat to women prisoners is limited to those people but there is a threat to every women from including biological men as women. It skews gender pay gaps and participation figures. It distorts figures on criminals and victims. It could raise the average height of women- changing clothing sizes. It will definitely affect medicine, where women are already badly treated. No more funding for contraception - the figures say women using it have dropped etc etc. We need to be clear about the difference between biological sex and preferred gender if different but the trans movement seems to want the opposite.

It's probably no consolation but I find your stance as a TERF just as peculiar. However, I think people are entitled to their opinions and they shouldn't be hounded for daring to have them or even being suspected of having them.