Key things to say to a head of inclusion sponsor

[Thethingswedoforlove]

Was out for dinner this evening with some friends. Turns out one of them (husband of my childhood friend) runs the dei network for a big U.K. firm. He is very senior there. They are a gay couple so they understand the perspective of facing discrimination etc. I asked whether the firm was linked to stonewall. Big yes. I said I thought they are toxic. And that I would like to separately talk to him to make him aware of how some women would definitely be feeling at his work but would be too scared to say openly. He called me a terf, said that the risks are overstated and that because he has a trans woman helping him lead the network that was already covered. I explained that she didn’t understand in the same way that I could explain as she isn’t a woman in the same way that I am a woman and he just totally dismissed me. His husband (my friend) was trying to broke the peace and suggest we had a conversation offline over lunch or something. I explained the legal risk I’m not following the equality act 2010 and that I would be happy to chat. I won’t follow it up but if he does, what can I possibly say to him? I said he is male and therefore doesn’t have a reason to get what I am trying to say and he asked me not to exclude him. Is it utterly pointless trying to chat to him?

Typos: broker the peace and the risks of not following (I am trying to get firms to follow the equality act!)

He called me a terf, said that the risks are overstated and that because he has a trans woman helping him lead the network that was already covered.

Wow. What a piece of shit he is. Just fucking wow. I definitely can’t advise you on what to say to him, just want to commend you for making the effort. What an awful, awful man.

If he called you a terf, it doesn’t sound like he’s likely to listen to you. In addition, it sounds like you tried to engage on how women would be feeling and he immediately dismissed the idea that how women feel matters and moved onto the “risk being overstated” so very dismissive of women’s opinions and feelings in general, from the sound of it.

Have you spoken to your friend about it in the aftermath? I’d be interested to know what he thinks. He’s more likely perhaps, to listen, if he sees you as generally a reasonable person.

As a gay couple I assume they are same sex attracted. What does he have to say about gay men being expected to include trans identified women in their dating pool?

He sounds great. Such a relief to hear people like this are out there and not afraid to stand up to the tiny minds.

tiny minds

No, yours is small, but the people you’re talking about are far away.

Always great to have misogynist men dismissing womens concerns and calling them names for wanting to discuss womens rights and safety concerns.

A head of inclusion calling you a misogynistic slur which is used to incite violence against women? I would ask him to at least stop using such hate filled abusive language. He needs to take a look at terfisaslur.com and ‘educate himself’.

A head of inclusion excluding women and refusing to follow the Equality Act? Hope some fine woman sues their socks off. That must be a dreadful place to work for 50% of the staff

And this is why the word mother is erased from company HR policies. Because mem like this have so much influence.

The board of that company know they need to address dei. Oh look this guy is keen on it. Let him lead it. They leave him to it, thinking it's all fine. Well it NOT all fine. And I bet you those other men are on your side. If you are brave I would anonymously be a whistle blower - go to the CEO and tell him his dei head is ignoring the women in the company.

Every big company is trying to hang onto their female managers. I think (I hope) the CEO would be interested to know one of the reasons why women don't feel comfortable in that company.

What a repulsive misogynist. Well done on standing your ground but I don’t think I would waste me energy on further discourse with someone like that. He doesn’t sound as if he’d be remotely interested in hearing things from a woman’s perspective.

So two men are in charge of EDI and are actively hostile to women's perspectives? What a shower of shit.

I hope he discovers very quickly that us 'terfs' are numerous in every workplace and thanks to Maya we don't have to silently put up with being told women don't matter anymore. I'm not sure there's much you can do as you don't work there, but the word is out now so let's hope someone in his company picks up the baton. You can't put women's needs last in the name of equality or exclude them from their own spaces in the name of inclusion, and anyone who puts their faith in stonewall law is a liability to their employer as well as their colleagues.

I wouldn't have any further dealings with him directly. You don't want it to appear that you're trying to justify your position to make him think better of you. Fuck that. You gave him the benefit of your expertise (and lived experience as a woman) and he smeared and dismissed it, proving what an appalling choice he is for the role. I'm embarrassed for his partner. Hopefully you can maintain your relationship with your friend but see each other without partners. He is an out and proud misogynist and you won't change his mind. Let's hope karma, the women in his organisation and stonewall's exposure as a clownshow bite him hard on the ass.

Thank you. It is very tricky indeed. I haven’t spoken to my friend yet. His husband is very dominant and is not used to people standing up to him. He is arrogant. I did try to make the point about same sex attracted but it wasn’t nice then for others at the table So my friend asked if we could take the subject offline….

I’m worried I might have to see them both over Christmas as we generally meet as a big group for a walk. I guess I just avoid him….

Absolutely avoid him like the plague. If you had sat across a dinner table holding forth with homophobic views and insulted him when he tried to put his perspective across I'm sure he'd do the same.

Ugh. Christmas walks with friends are meant to be fun. I'd be at risk of misuse of my hiking pole. I guess hopefully it's a big enough group you can avoid him which is probably the best plan. But I'd definitely be wearing an adult human female hoody or suffragette scarf.

More fundamentally, you tried to stir a massive argument over a dinner with friends? How incredibly awkward for all concerned.

You've communicated an idea.

It is up to your counterpart to be curious or closed minded.

If he has more questions, he'll come to you. For now, just leave it. You sound like you are in a fragile relationship which needs to look a certain way anyway.

I would continue the conversation with your friend rather than his husband. It’s too important to ignore. Over a walk is perfect. Don’t need everyone in the group to be involved in the conversation. Merely raising questions here and there. His husband should really be willing to listen to opinions and experiences of a diverse group of people rather than only people he agrees with if he is genuinely interested in inclusion but sometimes it takes a while before people can see the impact. Changing minds over dinner in front of a lot of people can be a challenge.

@saraclara i categorically did not try to stir up a massive argument over dinner. I clearly said that I didn’t want to discuss the subject now but that I would welcome an opportunity to privately discuss the matter with him and to tell him how many women at his place of work would be feeling. I responded when he called me a terf and to answer a few questions he asked me. But i categorically did not do as you suggest and I ask that you don’t make personal insults when you weren’t there and have misconstrued all that I have said.

I also had a private conversation with him at the table as he was sat next to me. This was brief and his husband (my friend) ended it when he could see we were both clearly uncomfortable by butting into the conversation.

I won’t avoid the walk and I will see whether he seeks me out for a chat. I might not raise th subject with my friend for a while and until I am alone with him. I think he will be more open to listening to me as he knows and respects me. But his husband is very dominant anyway so probably won’t listen even to my friend.

Well done for raising the issue OP. There's so often an assumption that women must not speak about the removal of our rights, accompanied by a sneering bullying amazement when women do speak out. So congratulations on ensuring that facts and reality challenged the sacred D & I speak.
Sex Matters have a range of publications that can help - legally informed and free from the fantasy Stonewall law. This one identifies the risks to employers and might be of use?

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sex-Matters-Understanding-Stonewall-Risk-080721-FINAL.pdf

And that I would like to separately talk to him to make him aware of how some women would definitely be feeling at his work but would be too scared to say openly. He called me a terf, said that the risks are overstated and that because he has a trans woman helping him lead the network that was already covered. I explained that she didn’t understand in the same way that I could explain as she isn’t a woman in the same way that I am a woman and he just totally dismissed me.

For an Equality Lead, he doesn't seem to have any grasp on what the protected characteristics are. The bit 'because he has a transwoman helping him lead the network that was already covered' jumped out to me in particular. It means he has covered and has someone representing and giving input regarding the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but hasn't covered and has no representation and/or inputp from someone who has the protected characteristic of sex. Presumably he hasn't sought any advice from any women's organisations either.

Did you tell him that Stonewall were toxic before he called you a terf? Not a great way to start an open dinner-table conversation.