Key things to say to a head of inclusion sponsor

[Thethingswedoforlove]

Was out for dinner this evening with some friends. Turns out one of them (husband of my childhood friend) runs the dei network for a big U.K. firm. He is very senior there. They are a gay couple so they understand the perspective of facing discrimination etc. I asked whether the firm was linked to stonewall. Big yes. I said I thought they are toxic. And that I would like to separately talk to him to make him aware of how some women would definitely be feeling at his work but would be too scared to say openly. He called me a terf, said that the risks are overstated and that because he has a trans woman helping him lead the network that was already covered. I explained that she didn’t understand in the same way that I could explain as she isn’t a woman in the same way that I am a woman and he just totally dismissed me. His husband (my friend) was trying to broke the peace and suggest we had a conversation offline over lunch or something. I explained the legal risk I’m not following the equality act 2010 and that I would be happy to chat. I won’t follow it up but if he does, what can I possibly say to him? I said he is male and therefore doesn’t have a reason to get what I am trying to say and he asked me not to exclude him. Is it utterly pointless trying to chat to him?

Had a wee chuckle at this.

Get yourself an Adult Human Female hoodie to wear on that walk, OP!!
If he is 'offended' by the definition of a woman, he needs to do some hard thinking. Being offended by women existing is the definition of misogyny!

So he's royally messed up at his job and you tried to help him but all you got was abuse which shows why he's messed up so badly? I'd say leave him to it, except a lot of women are going to suffer before he's sacked for trashing the company silly enough to employ him.

More fundamentally, you tried to stir a massive argument over a dinner with friends? How incredibly awkward for all concerned.

Thats it women, make sure to act submissive and polite while you're being screwed over. That's what's expected of you. 🙄

Christ almighty, it's like Handmaid's Tale writ large.

@JanesLittleGirl so it’s my fault for saying that stonewall are toxic?

Well done for tackling the issue with him. It’s a shame that someone who holds a senior position uses a slur against you; you’d expect a better level of reasoning from a person who presumably has a level of intelligence and education.

I’d also buy the Adult Human Female hoodie but not bother wasting time talking to him again.

Recommend the Ben Cooper KC video - all responsible employers should view this imo to understand their responsibilities and ensure tolerance (which seems sadly lacking at present)!

Just saw this on Twitter - EDI at the MOJ declaring such phrases as 'gender critical', 'protecting women and girls' and 'Karen White' as transphobic dogwhistles - twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1594098711327539200?s=20&t=HQ5RRjQ9yAQCOR4cQ-WcLQ

And the eye rolling debate about the word transwoman and whether or not it should include a space.

You were asked to take the subject offline because it was making others uncomfortable, but it was ok to insult you! He so7nds lovely.

You were raising concerns particular to your sex, which is a protected characteristic, and the DEI professional thought he could dismiss them?

Is he new to the job (presume not as he identifies as senior) or has he not come across this before? He sounds rather closed-minded.

I wonder what his bosses would think? I suspect his female colleagues already know what a piece of work he is.

I think having a separate dialogue after you've had some chance to prepare could be quite useful. Though if he's dominating you could be on a hiding to nothing anyway.

A lot of middle aged gay people have a very strong gut loyalty to Stonewall that comes from Stonewall's history (before TWAW) Not that you're wrong, they have become toxic and I'm told they have not always been popular among other gay rights groups outside London... but if the first thing you said was "Stonewall are toxic" that might go down like a cup of cold sick and put his back up.

So you could still potentially do some good by diplomatically apologising for getting off on the wrong foot and then by trying to ask questions rather than going straight in with facts and challenges.

• Is TERF a word you would ever use at work? It's a serious slur so I was shocked that you used it to me. The more neutral term is "gender critical".
• Do you know the slogan "No decision about me without me?" It's been widely used in disability activism and it's an NHS slogan but it's quite powerful for EDI in general. How do you make sure that all women can express their needs safely without them being accused of transphobia?
• Which risks are overstated? Which risks are relevant to your company EDI and what's your evidence on that?

I would try to include one or two killer statistics or anecdotes, have a lot ready but only mention one or two. Here are a couple of mine:

(1) Example of GC feminists understating risks: A feminist organisation Fair Play for Women wanted to know how many male sex offenders would claim to be trans and get transferred to women's prisons, so they did a study in 2017. Their guesstimate was about 40% of the male prisoners who did this were sex offenders. That sounds ridiculously high and very prejudiced (but at least FPFW did the decent thing and they published how they figured out their number, you can find it on their website). But they weren't exaggerating, far from it. In 2019 the Ministy of Justice published their own real results. They found 60%. fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

(2) Example of transwomen not representing other women and prioritising transwomen's needs: A transwoman was appointed to be head of Rape Crisis services in Edinburgh. She said in public that women who only wanted to talk about what happened to them in a single-sex group were bigoted and needed to "reframe their trauma".

(3) Example of women unable to have their needs recognised: A patient in a women's hospital went to the police to complain she'd been raped by a transwomen patient and the hospital followed the NHS self-id policy so for months afterwards they told the police that there were only women and
the rape couldn't have happened. Though they had CCT evidence. (That was reported in the House of Lords hansard.parliament.uk//lords/2022-03-16/debates/84C9B6AA-0214-4CEF-A41D-302373BDC190/HealthAndCareBill#contribution-2C34DA23-A5AD-483E-ACB8-AF8A5C547F73 Very long but search for Baroness Winterbourne

Good luck!

And remind him that as a man he has no skin in the game and can inky see this from a man’s point of view.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay thank you so much

@AmaryllisNightAndDay great post

I think Stonewall are so influential that talking about the discrepancies between the aims of the founders - that same-sex attraction is valid and should be recognised, the same as heterosexuality is - and the current direction that same-sex attraction can be akin to racism - is a talking point in itself, so I can certainly see why you'd want to discuss it, regardless of where you yourself work.

@SpiderToes i didn’t talk about the policies specifically. I merely tried to make him aware that some people in his workplace will be feeling extremely uncomfortable because of the alliance with stonewall.

he had a senior role at the firm. The dei network lead is an adjunct to the day job.

@Thethingswedoforlove Basically yes. He is in a same sex marriage and is the head of his company dei network. Neither of these would exist without Stonewall so he is likely to be defensive if you abuse them and calling Stonewall toxic would be regarded as abuse by very many people. You might have made more progress if you had praised Stonewall's work for the gay community but were unsure of their position on transgender rights and would welcome the opportunity to discuss this.

I did praise stonewall for its previous work and recognise that it was amazing in the past. I then added that now it is toxic. But agree not using that word might have been better. Thank you for explaining.

Thank you for listening.

Of course she should raise it, we have to work hard and work together to stop this dangerous nonsense. She should be praised for speaking up. This man is wrong in so many ways, does not seem to care and yet has been appointed to manage this department at a large UK company. Horrible for his women co workers and very bad for his company and women's rights in the UK. If large companies are still getting it so wrong we have a long way to go.

So she can’t discuss work with a man then? Ok. You hears OP just keep your mouth closed and discuss - what’s approved topics?