Stephen Fry

[zanahoria]

“But it isn’t possible if each side looks on the other as an enemy and the trans people just shout ‘terf’ (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) and the feminists seem to, as it were, undermine the dignity and rights of the trans community, if I can use the word community – it is a bit of a greasy word, but there you go.”

^www.aol.co.uk/stephen-fry-urges-calm-debate-180132887.html^

Stephen Fry urges clam then compares what one side is doing with what the other side seems to be doing

He’s not wrong. Trans people do believe we undermine their dignity, that’s actually a very restrained way of putting what they think. And we do get called TERFs at the drop of a hat. He hasn’t said he agreed with either side but he has certainly described the problem.

I can't stand him but what he's said seems very reasonable.

I saw this and rolled my eyes: Behold, a man hath appeared and lo, all was calm. It's that kind of thing.

Well I, for one, don't agree that the feminists -

undermine the dignity and rights of the trans community,

it's the other way round.

So no Stephen Fry does not understand the issues at all. Nor is that a balanced viewpoint.

So for a calm debate feminists need to stop undermining the dignity and rights of trans identified people? So, would that mean shutting up about everything that matters to feminists?? How does he imagine that would work?

It's just asking one "side" to stop being insulting and telling the other "side" to shut up completely. He's got no skin in the game, no specialist knowledge on any of the issues, why does he think anyone should listen to him? Hmm.

They don't just shout TERF they threaten us with death and rape.

We don't 'undermine the dignity and rights' of anyone, we point out that the ideology undermines the dignity and rights of females.

Also, we don't want rapists in women's prisons or kids/teens to be put on blockers, hormones and have surgery to remove their breasts and/or genitals.

Which is why we get the death and rape threats...

I think he will get splinters from fence sitting, but at least he has not renounced anyone.

He seems to have attempted to see the issues. However, he also seems to think that women just haven’t sat back and looked for alternatives which were rejected. And he may believe that trans people should get all their demands fulfilled. I couldn’t say from the reports on what he said.

But ‘feminine’ spaces . Really????

www.aol.co.uk/entertainment/stephen-fry-urges-calm-debate-180132887.html

The fact he used the outdated word "intersex" makes me suspicious he only has "friends" who identify this way, rather than actually having DSDs, but there we go.

He's on the fence, and he'll be condemned by both sides, but AT LEAST he's not calling women names. Am I grateful for crumbs?

I don't know where the answer is when giving dignity to trans people seems to be having to lie about biological sex being binary and immutable. It is. You can't change sex. I don't know how to move away from reality. Of cause I want adults with gender dysphoria to be comfortable in their lives. But where is the balance of rights to be had.

He could help find that balance, but he's too scared. He knows that.

Well that's a dilemma

We can't avoid undermining the dignity of either women or transpeople if they insist TWAW

I think he has superficially got to know the issues.

I think he has a reputation for seeing facts rather than ideology and therefore knows it would undermine he credibility to say people can change sex.

undermine the dignity and rights of the trans community

He needs to say what exactly is being done to undermine the rights and dignity of men who are transwomen.

I shall carry on undermining the dignity of the trans 'community' while it thinks it ok to have a man running a rape crisis centre, men pretending to be women in women's prisons, telling lesbians they need to get with 'girldick', and stealing women's sports trophies.

This is Stephen Fry who lectured straight women on their sex lives right????

I'm interested in all these 'intersex' friends he claims to have. Don't they object to him using outdated and unhelpful terminology?

As Graham Norton demonstrated, this is a risky topic to weigh in on trying to be the 'voice of reason' in the middle. Because the voice of reason is already represented.

It's not complicated.

The demands of transwomen clash on every level with the rights of women. That's what happens when you want to pretend sex doesn't exist.

The conflict is the issue. Can women retain their single sex spaces, or not. That's the issue. It's an either/or.

And if he thinks it might depend on what the space is, well, we've had that conversation a zillion times. You're not allowed to specify or offer alternative provision. It's all or nothing.

I can be as calm and polite as the most calm and polite person in the world. It doesn't change the issue.

Yes that was grim. Men are sexually superior because they'll shag anyone anywhere, or something.

TRAs are so upset by Fry's remarks, I assumed he'd come out as full GC, but apparently not.

a weary lol as another man comes along to say ‘im sure it would be fine if women would just be reasonable’ as if it were us that had started #nodebate, us trying to force ourselves into spaces we don’t belong, us Sending death threats & Sevding screaming mobs to meetings to shut trans ppl up

The dignity argument is not a helpful one to make. TW want into women's spaces, women want them to remain spaces for actual women (not sure if there is an inoffensive term to use to describe actual women now that India Willoughby believes India is a biological female).

It makes no more sense to say women are undermining TW dignity than it does to say that TW are undermining women's dignity. Their arguments are equivalent.

The fact that Stephen perpetuates the myth that women are doing something to TW which is not being done to them is problematic. The question is what do women, who are the ones with skin in this game - the ONLY ones with skin in this game want. Men have no right to berate women about how they feel when their spaces are taken away.

'calm down, dear'.

If it 'undermines the dignity' of TQ+ identified people to say that female people exist and no male person is one, and that because of that females must have the equality of access, dignity and privacy of female only spaces for those who need them?

Then they're just going to have to have their dignity undermined I'm afraid. They cannot expect to be happy at the expense of removing other people's dignity, privacy and happiness while failing to give a shit. When male people manage to find a fuck to give about females and the capacity to see them as people instead of service units this whole mess might get somewhere. I include highly misogynist gay blokes with no skin in the game in this.

Fry was asked whether he would want to take part in the debate.

He said: “I wouldn’t. I definitely wouldn’t because I am aware that you are talking about an issue where two sides are very sore and anxious about their enemies.”

Framing people with different views as 'enemies' is a large part of the problem.

and to consider that is possible for trans people to live full, accepted lives according to their terms in society, and for women to have all the rights and dignities they demand.

It's really not, Stephen. We can't just allow males to have everything 'according to their terms' when their terms are based on the removal of women's rights. I mean, some people clearly think that's fine, and that a man's desires should override those of a woman. I don't agree.

• what ?

that should be +what ?

Why do men find it so hard to grasp that women don't want to undress in front of random men?