Scottish hospitals warned over isolating transwomen

[filphone]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-hospitals-warned-over-isolating-transwomen-dwc6dwvw5

Honestly why does it even matter if they are cis or trans? A male person with a penis is in an position where they have created an environment where women cannot question who they are or how they identify. For all we know they could have lived as a “woman” for 50 years or 50 seconds but their feelings matter more than ours. Don’t matter if we were brutally raped we will be pegged as bigots if they decide they need to wash our genitals in a hospital and we say we aren’t comfortable being touched by them.

EvilBee

cis men

Could you not assume someone's gender as that is literal violence.

Also Cis is a word that is not allowed on this site as posters find it offensive.

@EvilBee

'Gender critical' ideology is incredibly reductionistic and anti-intellectual.

Interesting. I think exactly the same about trans ideology. Perhaps you can be the person who finally makes it add up for me.

If I understand correctly, cross sex hormones, if they are used, are given to people who already identify as trans.

What, in your understanding, is the essential quality shared by trans women and so-called cis women, but no other males and not by trans men?

Why, given that this inner gender identity is not externally visible in trans people unless they chose to express it, is it nevertheless more significant in what social support and protections one needs than ones sex even though ones sex is what others react to?

Why, if gender (non-physical) is what's important rather than sex (physical), are we assuming that just rebadging single sex provisions into single gender provisions is adequate? Why would we assume anything originally shaped around sex would be exactly appropriate for gender when gender was never considered?

Why, when whether or not you believe sex should have been considered significant, there is no denying it has been considered significant for almost our entire cultural history, and this has been encoded in how our society developed, meaning that even if sex was originally meaningless that long history has made it a socially significant factor, and given that we now understand the importance of intersectionality in social outcomes and disadvantages, are we not allowed to notice that in a world where women can be both male and female, male women have social and physical advantages and power that female women do not? If sex and gender are different why can't we have female only spaces that exclude males of any gender?

Note that none of the above in any way rejects trans women's gender identity as women. It simply questions on what basis demands for access to single sex resources based on gender are justified.

That is the reductionistic and anti-intellectual gap at the heart of trans activism that I cannot get past. Not that sex and gender cannot be different or that gender identity cannot exist, but the way that trans activism wants them to be separate sometimes (when claiming trans women are women) but the same the rest of the time (when claiming everything set up for women when "woman" was synonymous with the female sex is also due by right to anyone claiming woman by their gender, and it's not acceptable to have resources assigned by sex instead.)

Can you explain it for me please?

85% of all trans people inc non-binary ppl are on HRT.

What, even those born female? Where have you got this figure from?

@EvilBee

Already got to the stage of equating me with rape apologists, such a delightful place this is and totes not a hatefest

It's totes weird how posters who come to scold us all speak in such similar way. You can really see it's coming from a closed culture.

But anyway.

If you don't think think that consent once given cannot be withdrawn I apologise.

Please remember that when considering women's (original, female meaning) moral right to say no to the expanding group of males who claim access to our spaces, names and political voice. Just because some of us said yes before, it does not remove the validity of saying no now.

Helleofabore · Today 17:34

Remember readers to keep checking if EvilBee posts their proven science on how the coding in cells can be changed completely and permanently to be the opposite sex.

WTF? Is EvilBee actually India Willoughby, who insists that 7 years of oestrogen has turned all of his cells XX?

Gender ideology is such a colonial thing too. Look what they are trying to do to the spanish and french languages? They are basically colonizing and raping their languages. No intellectual is going to the language rules that gender ideology is trying to enforce. None of it is comfortable or grammatically correct. No one had a fair sit down with these cultures and asked if they were okay or comfortable with those rules. History is repeating itself. Use our language, cultures and our ideology OR ELSE. It was a manipulative demand dressed up as a nice request. Soon they will be enforcing it and there will be consequences for not allowing gender ideology to assimilate them.

Probably stonewall, given their poor statistics.
A quick look at all those under the "trans" umbrella makes me doubt the 85% number.

FrippEnos

85% of all trans people inc non-binary ppl are on HRT.

^What, even those born female? Where have you got this figure from?
Probably stonewall, given their poor statistics.^

It's incredibly generous of you to dignify their wibblings as "statistics."

Start by asking yourself why trans women are on female only wards.

Thank you that made me laugh :)

oh no wait.

Let us see the evidence that EvilBee provides as a health care provider and an appointed spokesperson.

Of course, as spokesperson, this thread will be watched by twitter too so that what is posted here from the years of experience and qualifications evilbee has, will also be commented on by the trans community they represent.

Those twitter posters also will notice if someone claiming to speak for them does not post that evidence.

As will all the readers of this thread. They will notice the lack of engagement on all the threads as well. They notice the questions that remain unanswered.

That is the beauty of long form forum posts, isn’t it? I am looking forward to it!!

I see the insults are coming thick and fast. @Waitwhat23 - when you or your family are unwell, please feel free to ask for only cisgender medical staff - they'll likely think badly of you, but will try to accede to your request and save some poor trans staff from being at risk of abuse from you.

It's funny that people don't realise that sex hormones literally change your genetic expression..those chromosomes anti-trans activists worry so much about have all the information they need, hence why when trans people go onto HRT they get changes in their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. 'sex' is not a single concept, phenotypic sex, morphological sex, hormonal sex are absolutely mutable..

..oh wait, were you doing that thing where you reduce the definition of something so that you can claim that you were right because you agree with your own definition?

Sure, you can't change the sex that you were born at birth (i.e. birth sex) unless you had a time machine, someone who is pregnant and no ethics, sure you can't change your chromosomes (well, it's complex, but in actually current reality you can't), but you can absolutely change the way that those chromosomes are read..and I slap that magical stuff on every morning.

Anyway, as you've already got onto the insults and implied that I'm a rape apologist and not competent at the job I've done for very many years, I think I'll leave this hatefest for you to squirrel and feed your anger addictions at each other.

@EvilBee very interesting stats. I keep reading that accurate records are not being kept so no one actually knows the numbers of people on hormones, who have surgery and who detransition e.g stop taking hormones etc. Please could you provide the source of your stats.

Thank you.

Think I'd be tempted to tell staff they'd been masturbating noisily under the sheet while watching female porn on their phone .

Whatever living as a woman means. I guess a button that says “she/her” is all that is necessary.

No! No! I am waiting to see it. Because this poster claims that we are boring and not very intellectual.

Meaning that they are obviously very intelligent and can explain this ‘stuff’ easily with lots of links.

You have been here long enough sinner to know we LOVE links!!! Every day is a learning day!

As far as the SNP is concerned we will be lucky to get that.

I see the insults are coming thick and fast. @Waitwhat23 - when you or your family are unwell, please feel free to ask for only cisgender medical staff - they'll likely think badly of you, but will try to accede to your request and save some poor trans staff from being at risk of abuse from you.

wow!

Insults? From Waitwhat? Really? You think that Waitwhat's post was insulting?

Yet, even just in this paragraph you have delivered what can only be perceived as a threat to Waitwhat and their family. And you have used blunt emotional manipulation and catastrophising to create a situation of 'abuse' to a trans staff member.

"It's funny that people don't realise that sex hormones literally change your genetic expression..those chromosomes anti-trans activists worry so much about have all the information they need, hence why when trans people go onto HRT they get changes in their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. 'sex' is not a single concept, phenotypic sex, morphological sex, hormonal sex are absolutely mutable.."

Please stop with the vague discussion points. Post the exact changes so we can see that your knowledge. As you have told us on other threads, we are very boring and lack intellectual capacity.

"..oh wait, were you doing that thing where you reduce the definition of something so that you can claim that you were right because you agree with your own definition?"

Tell you what, you provide a non circular definition and we will let you know if we have seen it before.

"Sure, you can't change the sex that you were born at birth (i.e. birth sex) unless you had a time machine, someone who is pregnant and no ethics, sure you can't change your chromosomes (well, it's complex, but in actually current reality you can't), but you can absolutely change the way that those chromosomes are read..and I slap that magical stuff on every morning."

Oh... how are those 'chromosomes' read please? Is there a chromosome reader? Because that would make trans health care so much more reliable for diagnosis.

Or are you merely talking about 'passing'? And 'presentation'? Because that would be transphobic. I would not like your posts to be picked up on twitter, considering you have told us on other threads that you speak for all trans people.

Including female trans people, I believe you said....

"Anyway, as you've already got onto the insults and implied that I'm a rape apologist and not competent at the job I've done for very many years, I think I'll leave this hatefest for you to squirrel and feed your anger addictions at each other."

And there it is dear reader. The flounce! The assurance of superior knowledge that remains unshared, and the flounce.

Plus ca change!

@EvilBee

implied that I'm a rape apologist

I did NOT imply you are a rape apologist.

My point was the argument that consent once given cannot be rescinded is the same logic some rape apologists use.

Many arguments which are commonly made in TRA culture and repeated without much thought are quite disturbing when looked at properly. I hoped pointing this out would give you pause for thought.

If you want to ignore that and just seize on my comment as an excuse to flounce rather than really interrogate and defend your own beliefs that is your call, but I will not let you misrepresent what I said to serve your own purpose.

Here's a twitter link from someone that wants same sex care (lets call it what it is) and the reasons for it

twitter.com/hen10freeman/status/1603022204467351556

Or do the rights of the trans lobby remove the rights of this disabled woman? because that is what you want.

It's funny that people don't realise that sex hormones literally change your genetic expression..those chromosomes anti-trans activists worry so much about have all the information they need, hence why when trans people go onto HRT they get changes in their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. 'sex' is not a single concept, phenotypic sex, morphological sex, hormonal sex are absolutely mutable..

It's funny how TRAs don't realise that single sex spaces aren't there to support people who look like "women", whether that is due to natal sex, cross sex hormones, surgery or just really good Instagram filters.

Single sex spaces exist to support people born female ("women" in the original sense of the word) with the challenges and risks of being female bodied in our society.

These are challenges and risks that accumulate from the day we are born, and arise from the intersection of our bodies capabilities, how we are socialised to see ourselves and how others are socialised to see us. It's not one thing, and no two of us are identical, but between us we recognise enough common challenges that we need and value female-only spaces, protections and discourse. We value the right to speak as females of what we as females experience.

TRAs seem to think that woman-only provisions just sort of happened...that they dropped from the sky ready to be used by anyone who can make a case to be a woman.

The reality is these spaces were called into existence by, and shaped around, the female people who needed them. To open them to male people, even those who have made a case to be "women", is a fundamental misunderstanding of what they exist to do, and a betrayal of the female people they exist because of.

Oh mate.

You can change secondary sexual characteristics through cosmetic surgery.

You can change hormone levels in your body to ape similar levels in those of the opposite sex, with the poor outcomes associated with doing so as seen in the female athletes doped in the 80's. And males aren't taking HRT as they aren't replacing hormones in the same way as women going through the menopause are.

You cannot change your sex. It is ridiculous to state that as fact.

I can, and will, ask for female health care staff for intimate examinations, as I am allowed to do so. That's why arrangements like chaperones, single sex clinics are in place to allow women safety and dignity. If a health care provider feels that my feelings are secondary to them being validated while I am accessing necessary health care, I wouldn't really care what they think of me, to be honest.

And as 'cisgender' is a made up term, co-opted from a Latin prefix by social researchers in 1994, I find it quite astonishing that health care providers actually use it in a serious context. It makes a mockery of the health system.

But... morphological sex is the genitals! Hormones don't do much to change the appearance of those, I guess they damage function somewhat. Tbh hormones don't do much for phenotypical sex either: they give male people on female hormones bigger breasts and female people more facial and body hair plus swollen vocal cords - they don't change hip shape, facial bones, hand size or shape, larynx size or genitals again. As for hormonal sex, some sports advocates say that it's unfair to expect male people to keep their testosterone levels as low as twice the level for female people, because their health is damaged that way. I'd agree, the hormone suppressant rules in sport are ridiculous and damaging.

Sex is what determines your role in reproduction

Nothing more or less

Your reproduction system can be broken

But what type you are is determined at conception and fixed no matter what you so to your body

Isn't it sad how little grasp on reality sone people have. No wonder they can't understand complex things like gender and safeguarding if they can't understand sex - something even the most simple of insects can manage to grasp