'Misgendering' cannot be discussed?

[Redebs]

It seems we are not allowed to discuss this

I’ve become very aware of how I instinctively notice if someone is male or female.

Indeed. I was at a comedy open mic the other day. A comic with a woman's name was announced. Good, I thought, a woman after all these men talking about their dicks (that's a whole other thread).

As soon as they walked on stage, mostly with their back to me as they greeted the MC, I clocked, Oooo probably a man. Then they pretty much said upfront "I'm trans. We'll get to that." I thought, bingo. We can tell ...

Actually they were the best act of the night, bar the MC, but insisted on speaking of themselves as a woman (not transwoman), and lumping themselves in with actual women. Kind of took the edge of fun off it for me, although they were very good.

They?

Excellent post @Delphinium20 you have explained linguistically what I was feeling instinctively.

It's not the same as changing name.

Pronouns are universal, and normal usage is sex-based. We are trained, from a young age, to use pronouns in this way. The mental load of changing that for one or two people is enormous. And very discriminatory, and I think could be seen as harassment if enforced, against anyone who is non neurotypical, disabled, or a non-native English speaker (or a child, who might be struggling to learn grammar rules in the first place).

Maybe as a society we'll eventually move towards non sex based neutral pronouns for everyone - 'they'. I believe some safeguarding will be lost this way, but still, maybe it'll happen. But individual pronouns for each individual person? Impossible. The mental load is too high and at that point you might as well use the person's name instead.

In the workplace, if every individual person had a different pronoun sending emails would soon a) take about 10 times as long and b) hugely affect productivity.

Also, given how easy it is to 'misgender' do we really think normal people will be going around reporting others - in McCarthyist fashion - for misgendering? I don't think it's likely.

I know three 'trans: people, two I see regularly. I accidentally 'misgender' them all the fucking time, to their faces too when in a group (and I am trying not to!). I really am trying not to too, they're nice people and I decided that I would do it rather than lose the friendships. I just can't manage it! Unless I'm actively and constantly put it at the front of my mind, which is impossible in the context I know them because someone could get seriously injured or worse if my mind wasn't on the task in hand. I knew the woman long before she changed her name and started insisting on they/them and I deadname her too, all the time. I do have ADHD so I wonder if that's a factor in not managing it, but overriding the code in my brain is HARD! Luckily they're not twats about it.

Also, given how easy it is to 'misgender' do we really think normal people will be going around reporting others - in McCarthyist fashion - for misgendering? I don't think it's likely.

Here's a music school encouraging people to use a QR code in order to report those even suspected of not believing in gender ideology. You don't have to have done anything, just wrongthink.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4674757-music-college-accused-of-transphobia-over-qr-code-witch-hunt?reply=121473736

I read that thread earlier and it was definitely helping me. The last thing we need are TRA Mumsnet mods

Thank you for this. I've done some more reading and it's even harder for the romance languages as the verbs are feminine or masculine! I wonder how they navigate it.

So frustrating. A few short years ago if someone said 'I identify as ...' or 'I am ...' and what followed was obviously not in accordance with the facts, everyone knew, and could conclude that the person was either a liar or mentally ill. Nobody was forced to pretend to agree. How did we get here? What next? When will reality and common sense prevail again?

Returning to the problem of threads getting deleted, is there mileage in reporting the people derailing and picking a fight?
Like, the ones on here for example?

Interesting replies about motivation and it seems like this is some.form of fetish. To my mind if a man wants to dress in hot pants he can and there is a perfectly accurate term 'transvestite ' to describe this. What can't be denied is that a man is still a man and therefore bound to the same societal norms that apply to both sexes when it comes to personal safety and dignity. (Those rules are there for very good reasons).

the thing I find Orwellian about meandering is that you are compelled to enrole in some one else's fantasy i.e. forcing others to effectively not state an accepted biological truth which is tantamount to forced deception.

I think what is missing from the OPs experience is any intention to hurt. The 'misgnedering' was used not to insult or humiliate; the pronoun was used in a fashion that has been used for millennia and loois possibly an in terms of response of response to visual clues. How can that be subject to disciplinary action????

'Misgendering' could also have used in some circumstances of ensuring that the sex of the individual is known (for instance toilet use) where safety and dignity are concerned. There is also an individuals medical safety when it comes to medical records to consider.

I remember there being debate about whether health professionals should ask all patients of they were pregnant. The conclusion in my local health community was that should a strategy would be greeted with mockery and reduce trust in the competence of health care professionals. Are those health professionals misgendering by assuming beard bloke is a man by not asking his pregnancy status given pregnancy is a major characteristic of women? Does a trans male.take offence by being asked about pregnancy before a medical infervention?

the concept of misgndering falls apart at a logical level fairly easily as scientific truth and the use of language by populations are insurmountable barriers. In addition this is not about being unkind, it is about truth. I have not seen one post here that alludes to anything hateful about any portion about any portion of the population. I have seen posts that wish to protect women's rights which have been hard win over the last couple of centuries.

Meandering = misgendering

Creating a crime out of so-called 'misgendering' actually prevents us women from protecting ourselves physically and mentally.
When we meet someone for the first time, we immediately work out if the person is male or female. It's instantaneous.
We behave differently around men or other women. We cover ourselves more around men and avoid behaviour that might later be represented as 'provocative'. That doesn't just mean avoiding anything flirtatious, it includes all kinds of self-censorship that we learn growing up: don't be too clever or witty; don't share information that might be unsafe; don't talk about your body, etc etc
Having men trying to force access to the safe places in our environment, social interaction and in our heads is abusive and patriarchal.
In the 1970s women weren't thought of as worthy of any respect in the workplace and media. We challenged attitudes and gradually achieved improvements one teeny step at a time. This latest offensive is one we need to challenge together if we are to escape decades of misogynist oppression to come.
Sounds dramatic, but when women are not allowed to specify female-only safe space in society, it really is THAT serious.

Is it worth appealing to MN about the deletion? It seems utterly unjustified - just the whim of one of the mods. Surely there needs to be a decent reason to delete threads. It can't just be because a mod didn't like it.

@beastlyslumber I'm just waiting for them to take this one out too.

At least this time there's no way it can be said to have gone off track; it literally IS about being able to discuss misgendering 😂

@Redebs

That makes perfect sense. Are we at a stage where this accepted defence mechanism is questioned? Correct gendering is important for safety on a number of levels; it is not used as an insult. It also guided conversation as there are particular life life and health circumstances that effect only women.

One strange point. Does beard bloke identify as a lesbian if he dates women? If so does this not fundamentally undermine the concept of a lesbian and therefore eroded any equality concerns of that population? If beard bloke dates men then technically he is not gay and therefore could not complain against homophobia? The concept of transgender potentially makes homosexuality a vague concpt?

Wit sounds like beard bloke is using a policy assumption to place himself in terms of.a position of power with regard to other people's use of language and put them permanently off guard. I wonder if the person is happy in their role and what his relationship was like generally with the rest of the team?

It’s compelled speech. It’s asking someone to call an apple a banana, or a cat a dog and then getting huffy and outraged if the person gets it “wrong”. It’s fucking stupid. Why does a small group of people get to control how we articulate the truth before our eyes?

As for asking children to go along with it eg in a school - wholesale, shameless gaslighting.

I agree.

I may choose to avoid a person's sex based pronouns in a situation where there is reciprocal social relationship in which they offer the same respect and 'kindness' that I do, but I will not mis sex. I will use their name to replace. And yes, it will be an effort on my part to jump through linguistic hoops to the effect of something I do not believe.

If however the concept of 'misgendering' is being used as a means of battering me or anyone else into compliance with coercive control and trying to make me enact a belief I do not hold? Then I have been forced to the discourtesy of being plain, because I'm not co operating with that. If you do not want me to state reality plainly and point out the behaviour behind all this then do not push me to the point of having to do it.

I am not going to be a willing or co operative victim of coercive control. And I really won't care how many synonyms you can find for 'heretic'.

yes

I don't normally report. but if 'going off topic' is going to be used as a reason to delete threads, then I shall report those encouraging a thread to go off topic and get fighty in future

I’m currently getting it wrong a lot to the annoyance of DD. One of the girls she’s mates with in 6th form uses they/them. I keep forgetting.

A pronoun isn’t a word we focus on, it’s like trying to not say “the” or “a”… it’s such a basic building block of speech I don’t notice them. So when I refer to that clearly-a-young-woman friend in passing, I say ‘she’ unthinkingly.

Gender ideology is inherently homophonic. Stonewall have changed the definition of homophobic from same sex attracted to same gender attracted.

This article address the idea of 'girl dick' and the cotton ceiling -

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

Homophobic rather than homophonic, obviously.

Do you need to pander to your DD? The person you’re referring to isn’t even within earshot!

It's exactly homophobic. It's why I came back here when I left during the first MN purge, so I can say as an older staunch Lesbian ; I am same -sex attracted.
And encourage other Lesbians and women to assert loudly and boldly their hard boundaries.

Men cannot be women; they can only be men in dresses and high heels and women's sports...