Sex Equality and Equity Network - Gender crit network for civil servants.

[fromorbit]

Important new initiative for government workers. This is where a huge fight back is going to happen in behind the scenes government, in memos and meetings. If we don't win in the civil service, it doesn't matter how many demos or cases we win, how many twitter threads we write, sooner or later sex differences will be erased. If you work in government/public sector get involved asp.

seen-network.uk/

"We are happy to announce the launch of our new UK cross-government staff network, the Sex Equality and Equity Network.
SEEN is a staff network committed to promoting and supporting sex equality and equity between women and men in our workplaces, and helping all staff to thrive at work and fulfil their potential. The focus of our network is on challenging sex discrimination and upholding rights and protections that relate to sex (including the protections provided to those with the protected characteristics of sex, pregnancy and maternity and sexual orientation, as set out in the Equality Act 2010). We recognise that to achieve this and ensure sex equality and equity sometimes requires treating women and men differently, according to our different rights and needs.

We are also committed to the protected belief (covered by the protected characteristic of religion and belief in the Equality Act 2010) that biological sex is binary and immutable, that biological sex matters for both women and men in our everyday lives, including for our rights and needs in the workplace, and that biological sex must not be conflated with, or replaced by, the concepts of gender or gender identity."

Just a comment as I am a user of civil service toilets. I used to work at an office in S London with mixed loos. It followed all the rules, floor to ceiling doors and wash basins in cubicles.

They are NOT sound proof and it is somewhat embarrassing going about my business with a man next door and hearing what they are doing as well.

Both men and women expressed discomfort with these arrangements.

Incidentally my DD then a teen developed a UTI because she was so uncomfortable using unisex toilets at her new build school.

I am sorry but in my experience men leave loos in a mess. Piss on the floor and toilet seat, the bowl caked with poo and paper towels all over the floor.

Fast forward to my new office. Single sex toilets and 3 unisex stand alone toilets with full doors and wash basins.

This is so much more comfortable and pleasant for women and men.

BTW there was an incident in a toilet in a former office I worked in in central London where a woman gave a man a ‘BJ’ which was videod by the male and passed all round the office.

I've just been catching up on the second Yammer thread (having missed the first one) and bloody hell it makes for depressing reading from a so called scientific body. Glad to find some other like minded colleagues on this thread, it gives me faith that the silent majority are just keeping out of the pile on. Well done to the few people who have tried to argue back - sorry I wasn't brave enough.

I was looking for a thread on the SEEN launch last week after reading pretty depressing comments on the Sli.do for an all staff call. Saw part of the Yammer threads. Not the latest though. Still too frightened to put my name to them. There must be a huge number that feel the same. I just haven't found them.

aseries, I don’t think you can assume no assaults just because it’s CS property.

I know of at least one assault by a violent ex partner on CS property. He faked his way in somehow, past security.

I also know of a building where, during a refurbishment, they found a peephole from the male changing rooms into the female changing rooms. No one knew how long it had been there. These were rooms where women showered and fully changed after using the gym or cycling in to work. It’s not an assault or rape, but is is at very least an awful violation of privacy.

First time I've joined mumsnet just to comment on this thread. I joined the civil service a year ago in an ALB and the response to the SEEN network was so depressing, I said to my partner I can't work for them long term. Horrified by the anti-science comments that human sex is not binary from a scientific organisation. Also the blind adherence to GI reminds me of the Stasi. I have come from local government and although some are captured, my old organisation was very sensible putting health and safety and safeguarding at the forefront. However it was more than that, we respected a plurality of views, not this witch hunt of those not demonstrating blind adherence to GI.

I opened an email from someone this week, that not only had pronouns but the trans flag and 100% trans ally and something like transphobia is a choice but trans isn't. I can't believe such a political statement is allowed, we are supposed to be public servants. I am so disallutioned and miss my old job. However it is a relief to know that others feel the same.

Sorry for the rant 🙂.

Why are you so determined to argue that women should be forced to endure unisex spaces rather than the single-sex spaces we’re entitled to by law? Do you hate women that much?

I'm with you, thinking about leaving CS as a result of that bloody Yammer thread, totally disheartening seeing colleagues saying your opinions are disgusting and should not be allowed, makes me worried someone will force the issue and I refuse to effing lie!

Thankfully no one in our team has raised it, yet, although I saw that someone, a G6 no less, apparently has discussed the creation of the network at the team meeting, and apparently 'they all agree' it's appalling it's been allowed to exist!

So sorry to hear that, CandiceMarie. I'm not CS, but hopeful that the advent of SEEN will lead to an improvement. It can't come soon enough by the sound of things.

Thanks for commenting. Solidarity with you. The only thing that makes me feel better was that although a few hundred had commented. A few hundred had not.

I am disappointed that those I assumed would be intelligent people, show such a lacking in critical thinking. Hey hoy.

Sorry meant that for LK1972 but haven't worked out how to reply yet.

Thank you and fingers crossed.

This is awful. Please report them.

If you see inappropriate comments on Yammer, report them if you don't feel comfortable challenging them on the thread. I try to avoid getting embroiled in the debate on there as it's just pointless - but when I have seen offensive or inappropriate content I do report it. If enough people report this stuff then eventually they will have to tackle it.
Also take the time to report to SEEN if you can.

Totally agree. I don’t bother with debates on company wide forums as the arguments are never in good faith. Unfortunately this makes others think that the loudest and public are the only belief and are too scared to voice their concerns.

I’ve learnt a lot in the last year or so. From here and multiple other sources. It’s been unbelievably illuminating and shocking and I’m very grateful to many posters and writers. Maybe those initially anti-SEEN just haven’t considered the full picture yet. I reached out to ‘educate myself’ to help a friend and their child and I have come to a very different place than I anticipated

Different people have different priorities and preferences. Personally, as someone with IBS and who had heavy periods for many years, my idea of ‘privacy and dignity’ is a self-contained toilet cubicle with decent sound proofed floor to ceiling walls and a sink in there. When I had a workplace where all the toilet facilities were like that (and unisex), it was much less stressful for me. Now I’m in a building with communal single sex toilets I tend to seek out the toilets in quieter parts of the building so it’s less likely others will be in there at the same time as me.

I have no preference as to the sex or gender of the person in the cubicle next to me, whether it’s a self contained unit or communal. I know plenty of other women who feel similarly.

I recognise most people on this forum feel very differently. But please don’t pretend that all women feel the same about this, because we don’t.

Haven't RTFT yet, but just wanted to say hooray for this. I worked in the Government Equalities Office when all this started, and attempted to tackle it. Let's just say it didn't do my career any good at all and I am no longer a civil servant!

@aseriesofstillimages the office i work in (and actually most of my Department's new offices) have a choice of single sex and 'gender neutral' fully enclosed toilets of the style you prefer. There are, however, some which have NOTHING BUT the ones you prefer, and no 'ordinary' single sex ones of the style that was standard 10 years ago. That is what people are objecting to - not that an additional facility is offered that may be more suitable for some, but the total removal of single sex facilities which the majority (according to the Sex Matters survey, the Govt call for evidence on toilet provision that was done earlier this year I think, and the average person I speak to) prefer. You are welcome to have your enclosed toilets, but can you understand that most people (including every single man i have ever discussed this with) want to keep the single sex facilities? Nobody is denying you your preference, we would just like a choice, that's all. I don't think that is an unreasonable ask.

@aseriesofstillimages I agree that we don't all have same needs or preferences and it's not about "hating women". I am lucky enough now to work in a place that has both single-sex shared facilities and also individual toilets. And neither are very busy. Though the individual toilet cubicles are not near the others and not well signposted so it's not obvious that they exist or where they are.

It's important that when a new building is designed and shedloads of money are being spent these problems are recognised and solutions are designed in. Somebody must have thought that the glass-end corridor with individual unisex cubicles in my old workplace was a great idea!

@AmaryllisNightAndDay @emsyj37 I definitely agree that having both options, where possible, is the best solution.

Hello, do you think it's time for Kelly-Jay Keen to be allowed back onto mumsnet? She's doing tremendous work on behalf of women and girls. She is being invited to speak at various countries now and has just returned from a tour in the US.
:)
https://www.youtube.com/@KellieJayKeen

I work for the Civil Service, and I reported both threads to the yammer moderators and I know other colleagues did too, one of the threads was withdrawn. Both times the moderators responded very quickly and included links to the civil service code of conduct. I was appalled at the responses to the SEEN network, and I am so glad the network has been created. Horrendous and frightening. You wouldn't dream of criticising any religious beliefs that may go against your own at work. 😡

I was appalled at the responses to the SEEN network, and I am so glad the network has been created.

The reaction to the network’s formation demonstrates the need for such a network!

I can't wait for SEEN to contact me. I'm old enough to not worry about my career. I'll put posters up, organise our local group and wear a lanyard. I'm not having this anymore.