Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

10 minute break.

Actually I think 15, "back at 25 to".

Scintillating reading, thanks guys!

I didn’t manage to catch all the original dates.

which one was Mr Nicholson?

Addressing LGB Alliance’s “concerns”, Nicolson pointed out that genital inspections are not required for one to identify as a lesbian, and added: “The majority of lesbians do not feel that they will become less lesbian if this legislation passes.”

He continued: “I just don’t share the LGB Alliance’s obsession with genitalia, they appear to think about nothing else from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night.

“I just don’t spend my days thinking about other people’s genitalia and I think it’s deeply unhealthy for them to do so.”

Write Up from Pink News, September 13th - I won't link

More:

In Nicolson’s witness statement, he referred to an ad campaign by LGB Alliance titled “Press Pause on the Gender Recognition Bill”, published by The Herald and Scotland on Sunday in January 2020.

The advert states that if Gender Recognition Act reform was to go ahead in Scotland, “there would be nothing to stop any man gaining legal recognition as a woman with a birth certificate to match and thereby accessing women’s hospital wards, refuges, prisons, toilets or changing rooms” and that the law could therefore be “exploited by predatory men who wish to hurt women and girls”.

Although Monaghan stated it was “unsurprising in a democracy that there will be differences in view on legislation” and described the ideas in the advert as “reasonable”, Nicolson insisted that the campaign was “designed to terrify” and “scaremonger”, implying that “plagues, hoards of predatory men will be bursting through the curtains of Marks and Spencer”.

“It attempts to link trans people with predators, it is the very definition of prejudice,” he added.

God , I’d forgotten what an absolute loon Nicholson was. He was the politician who was far too busy and important for this but couldn’t give a straight answer to anything, making his display of awfulness drag oooon and oooon

Why am I not surprised that they are recommending discarding his evidence?

And was 'very late' yet stood outside taking photos which were posted on Twitter.

If anyone wants to relive the John Nicolson experience, start here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today?page=33

He was awful and patronising. Calling LGBA witnesses 'coy' amongst other things.

Oh, I remember him now.
He was a definite ‘character’

KM - Equality and Diversity are in the public benefit

LGBA beliefs or values are in conformity with a substantial number of other people. Probably most people.

They reflect legal norms as opposed to MM approach.

That does not mean others cannot have different views. A diversity of views must be accommodated in a liberal decmocracy.

KM being very clear in using the EA 2010 to explain "man", "woman", "male", and "female".

Looking at EA

Definition of gender reassignment does not have the effect of changing a persons legal sex. We find that in GRA

Sex is defined as a man or a woman. What a man or a woman is for these purposes is defined as man is a male of any age, woman is a female of any age. What is meant by male and female is biologically rooted.

This is what we’ve been waiting for.
The equality act meaning of sex brought bare before the courts.

Can't believe she has to explain this to a judge

Now onto the Equality Act.

First part - gender reassignment defined at section 7. It does not have the effect of changing a person's legal sex - we find that in the GRA.

Section 11 - sex is defined. Protected characteristic is a 'man' or a 'woman'

Man means a male of any age, woman a female of any age. Female and Male are biologically rooted.

Even if there were doubt, case law confirms a biological root.

(Quotes Christie Elan-Cane case - the person who wanted 'no gender on a passport, which specifies diff between sex and gender)

It's probably for the best, these days.

Chromosonal, gonadal and genital appearance - sex

Gender is self identified

Confusion when these are used interchangeably

I note from earlier posts that there are quite a few journalists watching this. I hope they write it up that mermaids want to change the entire meaning of homosexuality.

Bench also seems incredulous that this has to be stated.

KM The GRC - if we want to see real confusion, that's the place to find it

It really is astonishing that this even needs to be said, it's like having to confirm and prove that the sky is above us and not below, it is just known.