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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids versus LGB alliance in court today??

1000 replies

GrabbyGabby · 09/09/2022 07:46

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/09/trans-charity-mermaids-appeal-lgb-alliance-status

Not sure if it is today or next week. Do we know if this is open like the tribunals?

OP posts:
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LaughingPriest · 13/09/2022 09:36

So someone brings a legal case against a charity, knowing full well that a legal defence is one of the most expensive things you can spend money on and is 'unavoidable', then complains that the money isn't spent on other things?

Interesting behaviour.

babyjellyfish · 13/09/2022 09:36

Datun · 13/09/2022 09:34

Bloody hell. I hope that comes up in court.

So do I.

If Mermaids can argue that LGB Alliance shouldn't exist because they are attacking Mermaids' charitable objectives, then LGB Alliance can equally argue that Mermaids, Stonewall and all the rest shouldn't exist because they are attacking LGB Alliance's charitable objectives, as well as those of all charities wanting to provide single sex rape and domestic violence services to women and girls.

Mxyzptlk · 13/09/2022 09:39

And the two opposing sides are in no way equal. Homosexuality is protected by law. Trans ideology supporting charities cant just re-write the entire concept of sexual orientation!

This is similar to the situation of the Scottish Government's redefinition of the words 'woman' and 'man' in the Public Boards Act, which was found to be illegal when challenged by For Women Scotland.

forwomen.scot/18/07/2022/judicial-review-2/

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 09:41

RoyalCorgi · 13/09/2022 09:35

Homophobia remains a MASSIVE issue in schools. Lesbians and gay men showing affection to each other in public are still often mocked or attacked

I think that's a fair point, and I'll defer to your knowledge. But of course trans activism leeches on that - it takes existing homophobia and exacerbates it. You're a butch lesbian teenager being bullied in school? Why, you must be trans. Here, come and take our lovely hormones and have a double mastectomy.

Not convinced pride flags, rainbow-washing and 'queering the classroom' are actually tackling homophobia, either.

One of the main problems, I think, with the current genderist project, is all the things that remain undone because all the energy is poured into stupid campaigns that distract and drain all the funding in favour of kink/fetish/puppy/carnivals.

I've a teen at school and from what I hear the endless pride celebrations and rainbow flags are ignored/eye-rolled, while low-level homophobia rumbles on - it's not seen as the two things even being connected.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/09/2022 09:42

If Mermaids can argue that LGB Alliance shouldn't exist because they are attacking Mermaids' charitable objectives, then LGB Alliance can equally argue that Mermaids, Stonewall and all the rest shouldn't exist because they are attacking LGB Alliance's charitable objectives, as well as those of all charities wanting to provide single sex rape and domestic violence services to women and girls.

Yes, exactly. Mermaids could find themselves hoist with their own petard, and the crap law project will just go off to tilt at more windmills.

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 09:43

Much as feminism has many, many pressing concerns that we're having to set aside to fight for the legal definition of woman ffs - yes on the surface it is absurd, but if you give it a bit of thought it's quite clear what the consequences of losing the definition of 'sex' and all the rights/protections that are applied to that would be.

Which is why so many feminists are resisting genderism so hard. And why (some) LGB people are resisting genderism.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/09/2022 09:44

As I've demonstrated below, there was a time when Mermaids were actively opposed to inclusion of LGB issues in their activism.

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 09:45

I am wondering if Mermaids are being used by some of the other orgs as a kind of sacrifical anode.

NecessaryScene · 13/09/2022 09:46

I am wondering if Mermaids are being used by some of the other orgs as a kind of sacrifical anode.

Sounding dangerously like an expert in something there. Careful, now.

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 09:47

I spelled 'sacrificial' wrong.

Chrysanthemum5 · 13/09/2022 09:58

Waiting for the conference host to join

mateysmum · 13/09/2022 10:01

Apologies if I've missed something up thread, but is it a 10am start today?

Signalbox · 13/09/2022 10:02

mateysmum · 13/09/2022 10:01

Apologies if I've missed something up thread, but is it a 10am start today?

yes

chilling19 · 13/09/2022 10:03

Here we go

Signalbox · 13/09/2022 10:04

Really blurry vid this morning. Anyone else or just me?

ickky · 13/09/2022 10:04

Is anyone in yet?

NitroNine · 13/09/2022 10:05

Mermaids et al are likely to fail at proving the so-called hate (& here it actually is so-called…) element of LGBA’s work, surely?

They’re not saying things like “TQ+ people are actually child-eating swamp-creatures”; nor are they (despite it frequently being alleged it is so) advocating for the removal of the human rights of trans people/the mass incarceration of trans people [in camps]/a “trans genocide”.

They do, however, have to be absolutely explicit about how [groups representing] the TQ+ and the LGB should not be viewed as a monolith; & exactly why that is. The simple fact of their existence was considered a devastating attack on trans people. They didn’t need to do or say any anything other than believe that homosexuality exists & people have a right to be homosexual to be accused of “literal violence”, threatening the existence of trans people, bigotry, transphobia etc. The UK’s current socio-cultural context means that LGBA’s work will, for now, perforce focus on clashes of rights with the TQ+ - just as much feminist energy is having to be expended in a similar fashion.

Protecting the group they represent when their interests & rights are in conflict with those of the TQ+ is defensive, not offensive. With the conversion therapy bill, for example, they were quite correct to oppose the ban on trans conversion therapy. The lack of research by the government means it was an attempt to bar something with 0 known incidences. (NB I’m not saying it’s never happened, but rather, the government’s determination to rush the legislation through contributed to there being no research done - I suspect they were aware from past experience they couldn’t run a consultation on the matter - & thus an absence of evidence on which the law was to be based.) The poor drafting meant that the Bill was inherently contradictory - banning gay conversion therapy; yet mandating affirmation therapy in gender identity services, leading to “transing the gay away”. That last is of a particular concern in the paediatric population. In opposing the ban on trans conversion therapy LGBA were advocating for LGB people. They weren’t trying to trample trans people - indeed, legislating for affirmation-only therapy was warned against by people who work in the field.

“Fighting the TRA narrative” is “supporting LGB people generally” - yesterday’s hearing demonstrated that very well in fact. The TRA narrative is that anyone can be lesbian & the actual lesbians (you know, homosexual females) are “sexual racists” if they won’t consider having sex with male persons who identify as female - certainly they shouldn’t expect to be allowed to filter by sex on dating apps. And the cotton ceiling is not real; but also completely fine and reasonable behaviour should there inconveniently be proof of it. Lesbians are not free to associate together unless they include trans women who identify as lesbian. The insistence TWAW has literally reshaped society - it is a frequently-uttered nonsense that TW have been using women’s spaces for decades & nobody realised. We all clocked that occasional “transexual” almost-invariably-awkwardly breaching our spaces; saying nothing from kindness & compassion, or sometimes fear. It feels, now, as if they were the scouting party for those who now [seek to] colonise our spaces. Women & girls are excluded from the very facilities made to accommodate them. LGBA seek to push back against that where it concerns lesbian [& bisexual] women specifically; & to offer similar protection to gay men & their traditionally homosocial spaces (eg bath houses).

Simply put, to be able to offer these protections, & to work for the benefit of the LGB population, they have to push back against the TRA narrative.

Signalbox · 13/09/2022 10:05

ickky · 13/09/2022 10:04

Is anyone in yet?

Yes

nauticant · 13/09/2022 10:06

J not that keen on Nicholson wanting to rely on notes that no one in the court has had access to.

chilling19 · 13/09/2022 10:06

Witness being told to put his notes aside.

Iadorerain · 13/09/2022 10:07

How do you sign in to view?

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 10:07

Ooh. Wonder what's in his notes!

SelfPortraitWithFoxInSmokingJacket · 13/09/2022 10:09

Anyone else stuck waiting for the conference host to join?

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 10:09

KM - calls attention to iPad and annotated documents.

J - asks JN to put materials to one side.

dworky · 13/09/2022 10:09

Strange - logged on but getting "waiting for the conference to join" message.

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