Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 4

[nauticant]

UPDATE: a transcript of the proceedings has been published and can be found here: lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony was heard from 12 to 15 September, and then, following a break, closing submissions are taking place on 7 and 8 November.

[This paragraph is probaby now redundant] To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from www.twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633653-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chamber-thread-3?page=31&reply=121335177
Thread 4: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

www.lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request in order to include the most up to date information.

KM: Our objects are exclusively charitable. None have been identified which are non-charitable. We are not in Ross territory.

RocketPanda

Schrodingers sham.

chef's kiss!

MM is an organisation entirely shaped by one woman's need to justify her actions. Anything that doesn't fit that need causes so much cognitive dissonance that they sound quite mad in response.

KM: to yesterday's question - lesbian, gay & bisexual have a very clear meaning.

KM: meanings of L G B people, this introduces no ambiguity, the terms have a clear meaning, see EQ 2010. To countenance a broader gender based argument does not introduce ambiguity. A clear legal meaning under Equality laws, a same-sex attraction, the fact that it may have two different meanings does not introduce ambiguity, because one charity can go with same-sex attraction if that's their view.

Is there ambiguity around the words Lesbian, Gay and Bi

KM says no. Definition is clear under primary equality laws, the equality act says same sex attracted.

KM: it means same-sex attraction.

How mad is it that this is having to be asked or answered!

@IdisagreeMrHochhauser - this 100 percent

KM isn't saying that the world has to comply with the LGBA understanding of L G and B, but that because the LGBA has its own view, then the Articles of Association it has chosen to draft based on that view, is clear.

KM - MM have sought to reconstruct LBGA purposes having shied away from the idea that it's a sham.

In fact, it's Mermaids that are in the wrong because it is them trying to impose their view of LGB on the Articles of Association of another organisation, ie LGBA>

Oh she is so very clear. Bet Tribunal Tweets love her

KM:

The terms 'Lesbian Gay and Bisexual' have a very clear meaning.

Even if its possible to countenance a broader definition - not an approach approved of by the Equality Act - in terms of a legal framework, the Eq Act is only one source

There is a clear legal meaning - makes clear it is same sex attraction

Even if 'that is contentious' - the fact it may have 2 different meanings does not mean it's ambiguous.

The way LGBA alliance interprets the terms may be different to Stonewall. Doesn't mean either of them have ambiguous objects.

Against that background (no extrinsic evidence) - even if there were an ambiguity, it could not have the effect of changing the objects.

Mermaids have sought to reconstruct - in their entirety - LGBA's objects.

Mermaids statements bear no relationship whatsoever. Complete redraft. No legal basis that permits such a redraft. (Promoting an anti-trans worldview etc)

This gives KM the chance to read out some of Mermaids views and in doing so is making them sound like complete nutters, and incredibly intolerant and authoritarian.

Getting very stern here 👍

This is what I was hoping KM would do. Excellent stuff.

Gawd, I wish I could listen in. Bloody rules about living outside the UK.

Thanks for all the info, much appreciated.

LGBA having to apply their funds and resources to this case.

Andie (she/her) is off again in the chat box. Wonder if she/her will get booted this time?

Goodman’s clerk would have had she/her out by now

Now onto public benefit.

"A purpose may be so manifestly beneficial to the public that it would be absurd to require evidence"

KM: There is a benefit to the whole community that the rights of all members of the community are protected.

What did pronoun Andie 'lol' at?

My feed keeps freezing but. It sure if it’s just my connection.
Finding this morning far easier to follow along than yesterday morning