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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
BellaAmorosa · 11/11/2022 09:32

Also agree with many PPs - what is the EHCR playing at, and the time for fudging is over.

JanieAllen · 11/11/2022 09:43

EHRC Scotland despite hundreds of women writing to them regarding Mirdul Wadha being appointed CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis under section 9 exemptions of the Equality Act and being a man elected to do BUGGER all.

RhannionKPSS · 11/11/2022 11:31

That situation with MW is one of the main things that keeps many of us women in Scotland fighting back.

JanieAllen · 11/11/2022 11:45

TBH thinking about Big Muriel just produces flames of rage and If I wasn't already in my over draft send over a donation to FWS

nilsmousehammer · 11/11/2022 11:58

Quite.

We've had women share on here their direct experience and failures of that service being provided by a male.

However the male in question plus supporters of this ideology first identify as there being no problem, and no evidence existing - and wtf can you do with anyone in a position of responsibility that just gaslights and lies in total denial when faced with information they don't like or doesn't fit their own agenda?! It's basic incapacity to do any job at all, never mind one providing services to vulnerable people.

And then announces that if there were any females negatively affected, excluded, traumatised, you know, those kind of indicators of massive major failures of the service, it doesn't matter cos those females are subhuman bigots not entitled to equality of access or treatment.

Again a quite staggering view which renders someone basically incompetent of providing a public service, never mind one working with vulnerable people.

I despair, I really do.

ArabellaScott · 11/11/2022 13:11

KatMcBundleFace · 11/11/2022 08:57

So....

  1. We will protect single sex spaces and services
  1. We will also allow anyone to identify as whatever they want, as long as they've got a GRC and now anyone can have that, without checks.

Both of these things can not be true.

It is 100% the same position Labour has taken.

It's a fucking insult to our intelligence.

Abitofalark · 11/11/2022 23:31

The DM has an article which appears to be based on one in the Telegraph. If you ignore the clunky title, it actually is good at explaining what the case is about and highlighting the lines of argument put by KC O'Neill.
Extracts:
"For Women Scotland won a previous Court of Session case over the Government's 2018 Gender Representation on Public Boards Act when judges ruled it breached the 2010 Equality Act.

The Government put forward a proposed solution in statutory guidance published in April which said that a trans person with a gender recognition certificate would be regarded as male or female depending on their acquired gender."

"But Mr O'Neill said on Wednesday the suggested resolution was still unlawful as the Equality Act states a woman is a person who is born female while a man is somebody who is born male.

It would also drive a 'horse and coach' through the concept of safe spaces for biological women, he said. Mr O'Neill added: 'The preservation of safe spaces is done on the understanding of biological sex - they are safe spaces for women who do not have a gender recognition certificate.

'The Scottish Government interpretation runs a horse and coach through that interpretation by adding that a male with a gender recognition certificate can access these services.

'If the court finds against me… that means any positive action measures in favour of women, like systemic under-representation of women in the workforce, would have to include any biological man who has got a gender recognition certificate."

"Meanwhile, For Women Scotland's representative, Aidan O'Neill, accused ministers of 'inventing' the concept of legal, as opposed to biological, sex.

He also claimed the Government had 'lapsed into incoherence' by insisting rights were based on biological sex, such as if a trans man became pregnant, on some occasions but not others.

Mr O'Neill said: 'It's a prescription for chaos. Our position is a consistent and coherent one - that there is one definition of sex, that is a biological definition.'

Earlier in the hearing, the advocate said the law's definition came from 'biological' differences between the sexes, and added: 'Women menstruate, go through the menopause, become pregnant and give birth.

'They also bear social expectations to be responsible for child-rearing.'

Mr O'Neill said that the Scottish Government's proposal was based on what he called 'biological denialism'."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11416277/Nicola-Sturgeon-tries-throw-gender-court-case-brought-feminists.html#comments

I haven't cited the Scottish government's argument: we know what it is and that it is based on the GRA stating that acquiring gender means changing legal sex. As is the EHRC's interpretation.

The incompatibility between the two statutes is clear. There it is laid out and left in the lap of the judge. Not that judicial review is the way for this to be determined and I doubt the court will want to get too far in. It's really for the UK government, EHRC, Parliament to sort out and / or if court involvement, an actual case in the Court of Appeal or ultimately the Supreme Court.

ArabellaScott · 12/11/2022 22:25

forwomen.scot/12/11/2022/judicial-review-2-substantive-hearing/

Report from FWS, with links to media coverage.

TheBiologyStupid · 12/11/2022 22:31

Thanks Arabella.

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 17:36

Ruling to be handed down tomorrow

twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1602274132636635137

AutumnCrow · 12/12/2022 17:45

It's a big ruling and the detail of it will be very illuminating. Fingers crossed for justice.

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 17:51

Does the timing say anything? Anyone got a crystal ball?

TinFoilHatty · 12/12/2022 18:13

My guess is 10am for no reason at all!

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 18:19

I meant, does the date of the ruling have any significance? I think it is out earlier than had been expected? Anyone got any info on this?

ArabellaScott · 12/12/2022 18:32

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 17:36

Ruling to be handed down tomorrow

twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1602274132636635137

Thanks. <breathes into paper bag>

HopRockers · 12/12/2022 19:33

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 17:36

Ruling to be handed down tomorrow

twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1602274132636635137

Can't look, can't not look 🫣

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 12/12/2022 20:17

Will the FWS legal team already have it? My understanding is that they get it a few days before. Anyone know?

RhannionKPSS · 12/12/2022 20:54

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 12/12/2022 20:17

Will the FWS legal team already have it? My understanding is that they get it a few days before. Anyone know?

No, won’t know until 10 am tomorrow and can’t speak about it until midday tomorrow.

RhannionKPSS · 12/12/2022 20:58

Numsmetbunfight · 12/12/2022 18:19

I meant, does the date of the ruling have any significance? I think it is out earlier than had been expected? Anyone got any info on this?

This verdict wasn’t expected until end of January into February, so coming back this early is “ interesting “ to say the least. I’m hoping the blaw blaw blaw nonsense from the EHRC man will work against them, but of course Lady Haldane has to work within the law, not her own feelings.

Signalbox · 12/12/2022 21:20

If FWS lose this case, I'm not sure I fully understand what the implications of that will be. My fingers are very tightly crossed.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 12/12/2022 22:02

RhannionKPSS · 12/12/2022 20:54

No, won’t know until 10 am tomorrow and can’t speak about it until midday tomorrow.

Okay, thanks, I will stop trying to second guess the number of exclamation marks in their Twitter post.

Abccde · 12/12/2022 22:15

I think one thing is clear - this is going to have an impact on the bill.

TheBiologyStupid · 12/12/2022 22:52

RhannionKPSS · 12/12/2022 20:54

No, won’t know until 10 am tomorrow and can’t speak about it until midday tomorrow.

Thanks, Rhannion - fingers firmly crossed!

AutumnCrow · 13/12/2022 08:26

It’s going to be a long morning, waiting to know if reality still exists.

TinFoilHatty · 13/12/2022 09:11

RhannionKPSS · 12/12/2022 20:54

No, won’t know until 10 am tomorrow and can’t speak about it until midday tomorrow.

Hoping to hear good news at noon. Thank you.

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