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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

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ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:34

nilsmousehammer · 10/11/2022 19:53

Because either it then has to be admitted that the GRA/GRC is a gesture only, and doesn't apply in actual reality, or Johann Lamont's carve out to protect biological women just got overturned.

Which is it?

Yes. Is anyone going to pin this really rather fucking crucial question down, ever? I mean, I thought that was the EHRC's actual job.

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:34

Scottish Committee of the EHRC: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/about-commission-scotland/meet-scotland-committee

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:35

And the Scotland Directorate: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work-scotland

The EA applies to the whole of the UK, though. The exact same law can't be interpreted different in one country, surely?

RhannionKPSS · 10/11/2022 20:43

The EHRC man made a complete arse of himself today 😂

nilsmousehammer · 10/11/2022 20:44

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:34

Bloody hell. So we DO have two separate EHRCs interpreting the same law differently?!

Tell me I'm wrong. Please.

Westminster's going to have to stop this. It's ridiculous.

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:49

I don't know exactly how the EHRC and hte Scottish Directorate/Committee interact or work together or overlap or whatever.

It seems very odd to me that the EHRC overall are issuing stern warnings to the ScotGov about the GRR, while their Scottish department are simultaneously fucking over women.

RhannionKPSS · 10/11/2022 21:01

Madcats · 10/11/2022 17:37

I'd like to think that Lady Haldane has gone home and poured herself a stiff drink! Those of you listening, I wonder whether she sounded as incredulous as her questions summarised by TT might suggest?

Maya's Uk govt petition is certainly timely and I hope this case gets publicity in all the papers, especially the Guardian (though I am not holding my breath).

Oh I bet she had herself a large one. She looked fed up, she stopped taking notes while EHRC man waffling & on about absolute nonsense and just looked at him as if to say “ are you explaining the law to me?”😂

Signalbox · 10/11/2022 21:05

RhannionKPSS · 10/11/2022 21:01

Oh I bet she had herself a large one. She looked fed up, she stopped taking notes while EHRC man waffling & on about absolute nonsense and just looked at him as if to say “ are you explaining the law to me?”😂

According to the tweets he did ask Lady Haldane at one point "am I boring you?". I got the impression her eyes must've glazed over. The tweets were having the same effect on me so it's no great surprise.

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Signalbox · 10/11/2022 21:07

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 20:34

Interesting. But surely they'd have to agree on something so important that effects the whole of the UK. The mind really does boggle at this point.

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BetsyM00 · 10/11/2022 21:20

The EHRC is a UK wide org. They do have an office in Glasgow but there is no separate Scottish org. I'm afraid this all lies at Baroness Falkner's door.

nilsmousehammer · 10/11/2022 21:31

Then at the moment the one organisation appears to be handing out conflicting advice.

Essentially it's being proved, over and over, that the GRA and EqA conflict, badly, and make an incoherent mess, and no one knows what the hell to do. And these never ending 'we'll make a law validating identity in soothing ways with a thousand amendments quietly protecting actual women in situations where this doesn't work' fudges are not helping. It's just cowardice avoiding having to say to a very difficult political lobby 'there are boundaries because other people have rights too'.

BetsyM00 · 10/11/2022 21:41

The Lamont amendment is annoying me because the argument at the time was very clear: gender meant the forensic examiner might be a man who said he was a woman, changing it to say sex meant the examiner definitely had to be a biological woman.

This was accepted as the parameter of the argument by just about everyone, hence the stooshie in the SNP, and the walkout by Mridul Wadhwa - trans manager of Edinburgh Rape Crisis - when SNP agreed to vote for Sex.

I suspect it has only been since Scotgov lost the first FWS judicial review that they have had to shift their position - gender didn't work as a way of saying TWAW so now they are going for sex, and claiming that has always been the case - the gaslighting is extraordinary.

One thing to hang on to. This court is the Outer House of the Court of Session and is the lower court to the Inner House where FWS won the first JR. So it CANNOT overrule the judgment of the higher court. All those things still stand: incorporating those transsexuals living as women into the definition of woman the 2018 Act conflates and confuses two separate and distinct protected characteristics, which is not permitted; provisions in favour of women by definition exclude those who are biologically male, etc.

TheBiologyStupid · 10/11/2022 21:48

Signalbox · 10/11/2022 19:43

Makes you wonder why so many voted against the amendment doesn't it?

This!

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 22:09

RhannionKPSS · 10/11/2022 21:01

Oh I bet she had herself a large one. She looked fed up, she stopped taking notes while EHRC man waffling & on about absolute nonsense and just looked at him as if to say “ are you explaining the law to me?”😂

Rhannion that's really giving me hope. I hope she sees through this bullshit. I looked up the judge; she seems to work quite a lot with female victims of assault and abuse. I'd imagine she is quite aware of ... things.

I was also astounded at the tone of the EHRC bloke, but it's hard to tell when reading a second hand account. He came off as a pompous, arrogant twit, but that might have just been my reading.

Abitofalark · 10/11/2022 22:26

Signalbox · 10/11/2022 19:11

Is there a Scottish wing of the EHRC? I thought it was just one organisation for the whole of the UK. But yes, when FPFW took ONS (Scotland) to court over their intention to make the sex question in the census self ID. EHRC intervened and said it should be birth sex OR GRC sex and not self-ID sex. As far as I am aware (and am happy to be corrected) this was FPFW's position as well. It was also their position for the EW census that they won wasn't it?

The EHRC is one organisation for England, Scotland and Wales, the whole of GB, not UK. The Scots and the Welsh each have a branch office of the EHRC in their own countries.

Northern Ireland has its own separate Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI).

The Equality Act 2010 does cover the whole of the UK.

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 22:40

nilsmousehammer · 10/11/2022 21:31

Then at the moment the one organisation appears to be handing out conflicting advice.

Essentially it's being proved, over and over, that the GRA and EqA conflict, badly, and make an incoherent mess, and no one knows what the hell to do. And these never ending 'we'll make a law validating identity in soothing ways with a thousand amendments quietly protecting actual women in situations where this doesn't work' fudges are not helping. It's just cowardice avoiding having to say to a very difficult political lobby 'there are boundaries because other people have rights too'.

Yep.

RhannionKPSS · 11/11/2022 01:26

ArabellaScott · 10/11/2022 22:09

Rhannion that's really giving me hope. I hope she sees through this bullshit. I looked up the judge; she seems to work quite a lot with female victims of assault and abuse. I'd imagine she is quite aware of ... things.

I was also astounded at the tone of the EHRC bloke, but it's hard to tell when reading a second hand account. He came off as a pompous, arrogant twit, but that might have just been my reading.

I have it, on good authority that is exactly what he was like...

RhannionKPSS · 11/11/2022 01:29

I got the feeling that someone had a word with him during the lunch break to stop him making a bigger fool of himself & the Scottish Government.

TheBiologyStupid · 11/11/2022 01:34

Not entirely sure it worked...!

Datun · 11/11/2022 07:28

Placemarking

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KatMcBundleFace · 11/11/2022 08:57

So....

  1. We will protect single sex spaces and services
  1. We will also allow anyone to identify as whatever they want, as long as they've got a GRC and now anyone can have that, without checks.

Both of these things can not be true.

KatMcBundleFace · 11/11/2022 09:03

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/10/echr-cannot-take-sides-in-debate-on-effects-of-transgender-legislation-scottish-court-hears

Seems like the ECHR is both sides simultaneously. Leading to an utter contradiction. This is has been coming for years, we need the Equality Act changed.

BellaAmorosa · 11/11/2022 09:30

A sidenote, but the symbolic value of a GRC, which AN highlighted, is not a nonsensical argument as RC tried to claim. I thought she was saying it must change a person's sex for all purposes, or what would be the point of it. But, apart from the obvious point that legislation can't change anyone's sex, I think there is an analogy with gay marriage and civil partnership to be drawn. Many people wanted gay marriage, because of the symbolic value - Civil partnership achieved much of the effect of marriage legally and in practice, but proponents of gay marriage wanted to be able to say that they were married. The meaning of that word, the legitimacy it conveyed, conventionality and equality it symbolised, was everything.

Signalbox · 11/11/2022 09:32

Seems like the ECHR is both sides simultaneously.

After EHRC backed FPFW in the Scottish Census case there was such a backlash. I wonder if they are doing this to prove they are somewhere in the middle? There is no logic to their position so perhaps it's tactical. The Government has spoken about amending the EA so perhaps they think this proves they are independent and not in the Government's pocket.

We need the Equality Act changed.

Sunak has talked about doing this on more than one occasion. I do wish they'd just get on with it!

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