Queens for the Night

[LisaPandervump]

A show on ITV at 8pm tonight that sees male celebrities dressing in drag to be judged by a panel. Hosted by Lorraine Kelly.

More normalising womanface and misogyny on prime time tv for ‘family’ entertainment.

'There are plenty of bog standard men who state he/him pronouns. I don't recognise "cis" as a valid term.'

Agree with all of this. Theres a few men in my organisation with pronouns in email signature, they are in the minority though thankfully

Female is a person of the sex which typically (barring medical reasons) produces ova during fertility years and has a vagina, uterus and ovaries. So a "trans female" as opposed to a "cis female" would necessarily be another person of that sex with a trans identity. I don't subscribe to the ideological belief that a male can be a type of woman, but calling them a "female" is utterly absurd.

My understanding of drag is that it really is true that it has very little to do with actual women. The boring old cnty types I mean. It seems to have evolved in gay communities to empower gay femmes and over time evolved into an art form. So it's an artistic form that speaks to misogyny within the gay community where, surprise surprise, the effeminate is the least valued. So from a singularly gay perspective, drag can be viewed as a fun and often quite sophisticated 'up yours' to THAT community's social hierarchy. Except now it's gone mainstream. And here we are.

I look forward to Asian for the night, Disabled for the night, Gay for the night etc.

But @Link3 surely that is still to do with womens place in society? Like a statement or an eff you to those who don’t accept effeminate men - so let’s ridicule and completely parody what being feminine means - no it’s not directly to women themselves, it’s to homophobes or strict judgements about the meaning of masculinity - but it’s still using demeaning what it means to be women to do this in the process… I mean that’s just an unfortunate side effect, but who cares? It’s only women…

Yes it is very much to do with how society values the feminine. Gay men are men first and foremost and socialised as such. But the argument is that it is a caricature of feminine gay men not a caricature of women and the gay community still very much value it as an art form that can punch back at a heteronormative society that has dismissed all gay men as sissys. Except it becomes a caricature of femininity itself (or at least a particular type of feminity) once it moves beyond the confines of the gay club and the gay gaze. So to many women, who actually live feminity rather than perform it, drag is perceived as just another group of gobshite men punching down. While to others, drag challenges gender norms and the misogyny that gave birth to it in the first place. Who says men can't be feminine and wear sparkly dresses and lippy? Etc. Anyway, it all about the menz. As usual. As a woman your not even part of the narrative.

@Link3 ite definitely something that has made me think - however they ‘could’ in theory have parodied their own femininity as being parodies of gay men - but instead often choose material aspects of biological women - fake breasts, reference to womens genitals, pornified and obscene ‘versions’ of women. I guess in essence they are saying the critique of them as gay men is that they are women as an insult - so they will go all out and be the most ‘extreme’ versions of women they can be as an ‘eff you’.

If this had not been wrapped up in trans ideology, it’s actually a really interesting insight - but because this is now used to demonstrate the worst aspects of trans extremism I just can’t get on board.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=3YaSDN_Rw_8

I used to think a bit different than most people (it's a view i've never ever heard and if I'm weird so be it)..but I used to think that transwomen and people who dress in drag... it's like they like women so much that they want to be one..like they want what we already take for granted...I guess I'm saying that can drag be seen as a form of flattery? Like they're celebrating women? I feel sorry for trans people. Not saying I agree with it one way or the other, I've never walked in those shoes.

But now...I don't know..I kind of feel exhausted with the whole thing. I feel like there are LGBTQ issues on the TV every day. Last night they were talking to someone about the Qatar world cup and their record on LGTBQ and something in me just snapped and I said omg I wish everyone would just SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!! It's doing my head in now, Why is everyone so bloody affected?! 😂

So yeah..two sides of the pie there.

I absolutely would watch Kings of the night.
Shirley Ballas made a fantastic Gomez Addams the other week.
On Lets Dance for Comic relief, you had Jodie Prenger as Larry Blackmon, Katie Price as Freddie Mercury, for Sport relief Debra Stephenson as Michael Jackson. Lip sync battle, Zendaya did Bruno Mars. Jenna Dewan sent up Channing Tatum with a pony routine. Natalie Palamides had success with her embodiment of toxic masculinity in Nate.
I would watch any female slebs take on a male persona, performing sonf, dance or stand up.
There are plenty of drag kings out there to act as mentors.

www.theguardian.com/stage/2022/feb/03/the-inspirational-rise-of-drag-kings-we-are-smashing-down-doors-left-right-and-centre

I think loads of people think like that @WednesdaysChild11 - hence the ‘be kind’ mantra.

Sadly people have no idea how dark it all is beneath the surface.

@FemaleAndLearning it can't be judged by this programme. If you watch something like Ru Paul's Drag Race- they make all the own outfits as well as do their own make up. Some of them look amazing and it really is a form of art- I couldn't do any of that.

They also don't all have names that are digs at women. I could give you a whole list of drag queen names that have no relevance to "sexual innuendos" or "rude female names" as another poster mentioned.

And some do dress up as aliens- Charity Case for example.

And some are female- Victoria Scone for example.

Drag is really not there to offend people- if you don't like it you don't have to watch- same with everything really.

@bathbombaholic
I understand what you are saying about the talent to do make up like that and make clothes etc. That’s fair, it’s impressive in that sense. But just because they may not be setting to offend people doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive (or that at least some of it is offensive). You can do something with good intentions and it still be wrong.

I obviously haven’t seen all drag and I’m sure there are some drag acts that aren’t based on caricatures, stereotypes etc, but of the drag I have seen, the genre seems to me to be largely quite misogynistic even if that’s not the underlying intention.

I'm not offended by it, I find it insulting to women and girls. Women are seen as sub-human that we are even the butt of jokes by gay men.

And straight ones too.