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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The police

732 replies

BlackForestCake · 04/11/2022 18:23

I was just thinking that the GC analysis is the only one that can explain the behaviour of police forces up and down the country.

The liberal position is “It’s awful that the police are institutionally racist and misogynist, but it’s great that they stand up for LGBTQ+ people!”

No. The promotion of trans ideology is part of the misogyny.

OP posts:
ANameChangePresents · 07/11/2022 08:01

What about the recent revelations about subpar candidate screening? Are we allowed to consider those reflective of the whole?

It's the 'poison sweetie' problem. If one of you/your colleagues is a murderous <insert pejorative here>, given the power to mess up people's lives you all wield, it's safer for me to assume you all are and avoid all but the most essential interactions with your profession.

I can't see anything but distrust being the default for me, moving forward.

ANameChangePresents · 07/11/2022 08:02

(Bernard beat me to the point)

ResisterRex · 07/11/2022 08:23

Felix125 · 07/11/2022 06:08

But is it fair to use a small percentage 'bad' things to be reflective of the entire police force?

Can I say that nurses in the NHS hate children due to Letby & Allitt

Is it a small percentage though? The recent inspection report on vetting didn't say so. And it said there have been warnings about vetting going back a good ten years.

It also didn't reflect on other associations you used to hear about within the police like the masons, which seemed odd. It would have been good to know that association was wrong or is now banned if it was happening.

AlisonDonut · 07/11/2022 08:34

Not sure what the other thread was - something along the lines of the police being too woke. @Felix125 Oh boy. Are you going to spend the whole of this thread saying 'this doesn't happen' again? And demanding that we provide the links to where it is happening all over? And then disregarding them all again?

And demanding you have your say because it is a discussion forum makes me laugh.

If you don't think it happens then what is there for you to discuss?

Is it not happening or it is just a tiny minority?

If it is a tiny minority is that just the tiny minority that have been found out thus potentially be quite a big minority?

How big a minority does it need to be to be a 'fucking big problem'?

It is a massive problem if you are at the arse end of someone who can deny you your freedom/rape you in custody/put you into prison with rapists/shoot you/kill you legally with state sanctioned firearms.

It is a massive problem when a police officer can arrest you and hold you in custody and sieze hold all the family's IT for weeks on end [without a warrant] for some tweets that you didn't actually make.

FernlovingNodosaur · 07/11/2022 08:38

Firstly Lucy Letby has no be convicted of any crime yet and has rightly or wrongly pleaded innocent, so innocent until proven guilty please, any police officer should know and adhere to that.

And what makes you think everyone on this board is pro NHS and thinks all it's workers are wonderful/beyond reproach? I'm certainly don't, as I judge as I find. I have had too many bad NHS interactions and am candid about it. So I shall also be candid about my experience of the police force recently and many I am sorry to say Felix in my circle feel the same way, that vast majority of UK police officers today are careerist, selective bigots, and not interested in upkeeping justice if it's to taxing. Yet it's those exact same type of officers that paradoxically seem to rise in the ranks of the police force and set the awful tone of the whole police force today, not the minority of decent officer

GeorgeQuentin · 07/11/2022 08:49

Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't the NHS investigate and condemn Letby when it all came to light?
It's not really comparable to the police who when something happens either double down and call everyone bigots, or say it's such a small minority it needs little action.

AlisonDonut · 07/11/2022 08:52

Firstly Lucy Letby has no be convicted of any crime yet and has rightly or wrongly pleaded innocent, so innocent until proven guilty please, any police officer should know and adhere to that.

Interesting to see that a supposed police officer who says 'it never happens, not in his force' shows exactly what happens, even in his force.

IcakethereforeIam · 07/11/2022 09:07

And Stonewall seems to run through some forces like 'Blackpool' through a stick of rock, and what we see pales into insignificance besides what's happening internally and culturally to get the Stonewall points. It's not just badges and macarena, it's the culture, the training and the thinking inculcated into these forces and, by association, all of them.

The NHS didn't train Allitt to kill and maim children, the Police are training officers to think women are bigots.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/11/2022 09:50

The NHS didn't train Allitt to kill and maim children, the Police are training officers to think women are bigots.

this bears repeating

Some of the bad behaviour is a direct result of guidance from the royal college of policing, see all the non crime hate incidents bullshit

the rot is institutional, it’s at the top

oldwomanwhoruns · 07/11/2022 12:37

@BernardBlacksMolluscs yes you are right, it's the plonkers at the top, sending officers on dodgy training courses and doing the 'stonewall diversity index'.
The police are being taught that some 'characteristics' are more equal than others.
I talked to our PCC , and said that they should not be taking part in the Stonewall diversity index', as it proposed measures that were anti-woman (such as mixed-sex changing). He just waffled in reply.

The PCCs are captured too.

And the police should not be using the alphabet soup 'lgbtq' nonsense. If they mean same-sex attracted, they should say that. Why are they using the terminology of a political pressure group?

livvyposts · 07/11/2022 12:41

BlackForestCake · 04/11/2022 18:23

I was just thinking that the GC analysis is the only one that can explain the behaviour of police forces up and down the country.

The liberal position is “It’s awful that the police are institutionally racist and misogynist, but it’s great that they stand up for LGBTQ+ people!”

No. The promotion of trans ideology is part of the misogyny.

I'm not sure why you think this is the liberal position. It's certainly not the LGBTQ+ position, most LGBTQ people's experiences of the police are dreadful. It's why so much homophobic hate crime and violence goes unreported.

IcakethereforeIam · 07/11/2022 12:59

BlackForestCake · 04/11/2022 18:23

I was just thinking that the GC analysis is the only one that can explain the behaviour of police forces up and down the country.

The liberal position is “It’s awful that the police are institutionally racist and misogynist, but it’s great that they stand up for LGBTQ+ people!”

No. The promotion of trans ideology is part of the misogyny.

The thing is the current problem with some forces being overly 'woke' (and the affect this has on the perception of the entire Police force) is not the only issue. Some coppers will have entirely bought into it, some just play the game and try to do their job. But with some it's just a rainbow wash that allows them to indulge their natural inclinations to misogyny, and/or homophobia, and/or even transphobia. I think, of the three, the perception of transphobia is currently so frowned upon that they may struggle to be too overt, but it will happen.

That forces are used to silence women is a separate but connected issue. Some of the officers involved are 'just following orders', some of the rest will relish it.

MangyInseam · 07/11/2022 16:36

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 06/11/2022 10:06

see this is interesting. there's a conflict of perspective here

we, the laywomen, see 'The Police' as a single entity. And there are plenty of examples of 'The Police' getting involved in gender woo - see West Yorkshire Police and Mermaids

@Felix125 sees the local force they're part f scrupulously avoiding this crap and says 'hang on a minute, you're not being fair to my local force'.

we're each talking about different things and assuming it's the same thing, leading to miscommunication

the general public doesn't understand the structure of the police @Felix125

we just see 'The Police'.

I'm not sure if that's wholly true.

I think it's more that those that are doing ok in no way make up for those that aren't. And how does anyone know which they will encounter? It should be clearly unacceptable for any force to contemplate this stuff, so obviously something has gone wrong at a high level.

AlisonDonut · 08/11/2022 07:57

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4668260-vetting-failings-could-mean-thousands-of-corrupt-officers-in-police-watchdog-finds

Yeah loads of things have gone wrong including hiring corrupt officers in the first place.

Felix125 · 08/11/2022 09:48

IcakethereforeIam
I agree - that's why i think where i am we have it about right. No rainbow washed cars or lanyards, no poppies, no supporting of charities or DV support agencies. We even don't use the RSPCA for animal cruelty jobs.

AlisonDonut
I'm not demanding to have my say - I'm adding to a discussion forum, which is what a discussion forum is about. Unless you want me to say "ooo yes, its all terrible isn't it"

Anecdotal I know, but from my experience and from that of my shift and the adjoining shifts - woke issues are a tiny, tiny proportion of things we deal with, the vast majority is now safeguarding issues. Last night we had a bout 8 missing from homes, 2 of which were high risk - they was only about 10 cops on too. And this is repeated night after night. So we are not even treading water with the emergency jobs coming in. I can't remember the last time i had a marked panda car to drive let alone a 'rainbow' one. The amount of emergency jobs that get passed over to the next shift is unreal - and then they can't get to them if they have a load of safeguarding jobs too - and so on & so on

It is a massive problem when things go wrong. Its like handing you baby to nurse Allitt. I have discussed the process & necessities of arrests and why they are sometimes needed. You also have to remember that there is a victims in these cases who would have a different view to yours if no action was taken by the police on their crime. Whats harassment to one person is not harassment to another - who makes that judgement?

I agree with you about the vetting process of forces and why are so many people allowed into the force with offences against them. We have people in our force who have received speeding tickets which I think should be enough to dismiss them. I have never had one as i stick to the speed limits on roads when ever i drive (they are clearly marked at the end of the day) and i don't see why other people can't stick to them. But, some people think that its only a minor offence so should not effect them. I disagree.

FernlovingNodosaur
I never said Lucy Letby was guilty have I?

And from your judgement, I must be one of the decent ones. I'm not careerist as i have been a response cop for all my service with no aspirations for promotion, I'm not a bigot and have fought tooth and nail for justice for victims and to ensure safeguarding - or am i doing something wrong?

We don't have rainbow cars or lanyards, I don't wear poppies, Ukraine badges, charity badges, I don't promote one support group over another (despite being asked by victims), I've never had a speeding ticket, parking ticket or similar. I don't step outside the law despite what victims are asking me to do to get their stuff back etc etc.

IcakethereforeIam
The NHS didn't train Allitt to kill and maim children, the Police are training officers to think women are bigots.
What training is that then?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/11/2022 09:55

What training is that then?

Mermaids training WYP

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/13/police-force-received-trans-training-mermaids-amid-calls-investigate/

Felix125 · 08/11/2022 10:22

BernardBlacksMolluscs
What ever training that is - we have certainly not had it.

And it appears that it only effected one force in any case, so its not a 'national roll out'.

ResisterRex · 08/11/2022 10:35

I'd still be interested in views on the masons and that vetting report.

Anyway, here's WYP from yesterday

https://twitter.com/wyplgbtq/status/1589553247597252614?s=46&t=JJ_q5fyegwVhTrsaMxnt2ww

Felix125 · 08/11/2022 10:57

I don't know of anyone in the masons

And I agree with you about the vetting process of forces and why are so many people allowed into the force with offences against them. We have people in our force who have received speeding tickets which I think should be enough to dismiss them. I have never had one as i stick to the speed limits on roads when ever i drive (they are clearly marked at the end of the day) and i don't see why other people can't stick to them. But, some people think that its only a minor offence so should not effect them. I disagree.

Would you agree that having a speeding ticket or parking ticket should be enough to dismiss you?

ResisterRex · 08/11/2022 11:06

Speeding could depend. Doing 90 in a 30, I would say yes.

But the report only has one mention of speeding that I could see and it was not in isolation but in conjunction with other concerns:

"Case study 4
A police officer applicant was granted vetting clearance. Five years earlier, he had come to police attention for speeding and other driving-related matters.

He also declared that he had been convicted abroad of an attempted theft in that same year. He was fined for this offence. There was also police intelligence, from around the same period, relating to the applicant’s possible link to drug supply.

And in recent intelligence, a man was seen with a firearm and involved in a police pursuit. The vehicle in question was a hire vehicle and the address for
the hire was the home address of the applicant. There was also recent intelligence linking a separate vehicle, registered to the applicant, to an offence of aggravated burglary. In that offence, five offenders had threatened the occupants with a metal bar before stealing jewellery.
When granting vetting clearance, the force didn’t fully assess the risks associated with this applicant. When we expressed our concerns about this decision to the force, it was clear from its response that the force had dismissed both the attempted theft conviction abroad and the intelligence picture. The force put no risk mitigation measures in place at the time of the vetting clearance and appeared not to do so after our vetting file review.

In this case, the mutually corroborative nature of the intelligence and other information caused us substantial concern."

The rest are more like this:

"Case study 5
A police officer applicant was given vetting clearance. The applicant had a conviction for drink-driving and driving with no insurance, 18 years prior to his application. Four years later, he was arrested, but not prosecuted, for intimidating a witness. In the same year, he was also arrested for a domestic-related assault. A woman was left with marks to her neck. There was no evidence on the vetting file to confirm or refute whether these two arrests were linked. Five years before his application, the applicant was again arrested for a domestic-related assault. In this case too, a woman allegedly suffered injury marks to her neck.
The rationale focused on the passing of time, stating that the “traces on applicant are significantly aged”. There was no evidence that the force had considered the full circumstances of the offences, including the reasons for no further action being taken, for any of the arrests. The rationale didn’t make any comment on the fact that two separate domestic-related incidents had occurred, where two women were both allegedly left with marks to their neck.

Case study 6
A police officer applicant was granted vetting clearance. He declared that he had been cautioned for shoplifting as a juvenile, although vetting enquiries could not confirm this. He also declared that 20 years prior to his application, as a teenager, he had been accused of rape. He was charged, but a senior prosecutor subsequently withdrew the charge. The issue was one of consent, as the applicant had claimed that the actions were consensual.
The vetting unit interviewed the applicant about the incident and consulted officers who had been involved in presenting the case to the CPS. The head of the professional standards department (PSD) countersigned the decision to grant clearance. But the recorded rationale for granting clearance didn’t
contain enough detail to explain the decision. The force didn’t introduce any risk mitigation measures.

Case study 7
A police officer applicant was granted vetting clearance. A Police National Database (PND) check revealed that the applicant had been investigated five years earlier for a sexual assault offence at a nightclub. The recorded rationale for granting clearance contained scant detail. There was no reference to the specific circumstances of the alleged offence. There was no apparent consideration of
the relevant factors required in the Vetting APP (which include the severity of
the offence and the likelihood of the alleged offence having taken place).
The applicant was not given a vetting interview. The PND revealed that the victim’s initial account included criminal allegations of non-consensual kissing, and touching of her breasts and vaginal area, while in a nightclub. She later withdrew her criminal allegation and didn’t support any further police action."

www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/publications/an-inspection-of-vetting-misconduct-and-misogyny-in-the-police-service/

So it doesn't seem speeding is the issue and parking doesn't seem to be mentioned.

Felix125 · 08/11/2022 11:18

I agree, there are some horrendous case studies.

Mind you - on the other debate we had about Woke issues & the police - most people agreed that we shouldn't use intelligence against people when going for jobs, only actual convictions. So would the same argument be true here? People were saying that we shouldn't be going down the 'Stazi' line

Also, speeding is speeding - its still an offence.
So if you were doing say 35 in a 30, it should be a dismissal, shouldn't it?

FernlovingNodosaur · 08/11/2022 12:06

Felix sorry for the delay in getting back to you and other posters.

You seem to pay only lip service and Darvo in your response to ResisterRex factual post. After highlighting that the police force are allowing men who are wholly unsuitable in to it's ranks and therefore giving societal power to men who shouldn't. Your response was Oh that horrendous, but lets talk about something else like woke and speeding.

I don't know if you are a good officer or not but you do seem to do a lot of deflecting regarding the bad behaviour of officers in the UK police force in your posts.

Felix125 · 08/11/2022 12:13

I'm not deflecting anything, there are some horrendous cases of people being allowed into the force who clearly shouldn't be there - and I'm not going to defend them or any of the bad officers involved.

i don't want to work for a police force which has corrupt officers in their ranks and will challenge (and have done) anyone who falls into that category regardless of rank or position.

I just think its unfair to tarnish every officer or every police force with the same brush.

IcakethereforeIam · 08/11/2022 13:22

Thanks for your responses @Felix125 and the other posters. I don't think I've anything more to add, I'll just be repeating myself.

FernlovingNodosaur · 08/11/2022 13:27

I also want a decent noncorrupted police force as it's fundamental to a fair society, but that's not what happening as ResisterRex post shows. For whatever reason those in positions of power in the UK police force are taking on and retaining men who should not have the position of power that a police officer job bestows. Sarah Everard would be alive today, if the Met had done their job properly and remove vile known flasher and exhibitionist Couzens power as a police officer. I mention Sarah because only this week. Couzens fellow vile officers have also been jailed for sending messages of wanting to rape women and wanting to taser children, disabled people and animals to Couzens. This is reality today of the rank and file of the Met.

Felix, sorry but those jailed Met officers and those mentioned by ResisterRex represent the reality of the UK police force today just as much as those good officers you keep talking about.

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