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Original poster

Another surrogacy nightmare

282 replies

GrabbyGabby · 20/10/2022 13:05

What the fuck will happen to these babies?
www.newstalk.com/news/im-terrified-for-my-girls-safety-irish-father-of-triplets-born-in-kenya-1394106?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1666210282

This is what happens when humans are allowed to be bought and sold.

OP posts:
romdowa · 20/10/2022 17:31

roses2 · 20/10/2022 17:11

Oh my, this guy has already managed to raise €15k of a €30k target on Gofundme!

The Irish public love stuff like this. They will surpass that 30k goal. Sadly a lot of irish society see nothing wrong with what's happening here.

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 17:34

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 17:00

If you have a look at the links I posted up thread there is a video narrated by the same journalist and a companion piece that’s more about the surrogate mothers.

In the Hard Talk article, there is a little audio player that has an interview with Edward.

They’ve definitely been scammed. The agency has seen them as an easy mark (perhaps because they are gay and that makes it harder for them to seek legal assistance in Kenya). Edward admits they were naive but they were under the impression that they paid the agency and the agency paid the hospital, the doctors, the paperwork etc.

They’ve gone to collect the babies to find the agency asking for more, then disappearing on them, and the doctors and hospital saying there are bills to be paid (bills that are continuing to accumulate)

Edward comes across as a sweet man who had absolutely no idea as to how terrible surrogacy can be, especially international surrogacy. They seem to have picked Kenya because it was the cheapest option on Google.

I find him far more likeable than every other gay surrogacy case we’ve discussed on here (admittedly very, very low bar!) and he seems genuinely distraught and repeatedly reiterates that he has no one to blame but himself, nonetheless he still went into this thinking that buying babies was easy and harmless and I’m halfway through listening and the mother who birthed these little girls doesn’t seem to be in his thoughts at all.

This story clearly demonstrates that predatory foreign agencies exist solely for money making and that no safeguarding of women or babies takes place.

The Kenyan courts are rightly dubious about adoptions and birth orders for babies born in this way and the adoption process seems pretty arduous (and it’s possible those birth certificates they paid an extra 3 grand for are fraudulent).
Technically homosexual couples cannot adopt in Kenya (and single parents have multiple restrictions too). This might be resolvable via DNA tests and the Irish government helping with the paperwork (although obvs that could open up a frightening future loophole).

Those poor little girls, no one to cuddle them but hospital staff. I hope they are allowed to sleep together, at least.

www.newstalk.com/news/im-terrified-for-my-girls-safety-irish-father-of-triplets-born-in-kenya-1394106

If he's the biological father and on the birth certificate why would he need to adopt them?

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 20/10/2022 17:36

NicLondon1 · 20/10/2022 16:31

I have no idea if coercion or informed consent took place, there is no evidence that it did either. And I totally agree they should have been fully informed, I said that in my original post, the agency has failed them.

However, are those of you against surrogacy for gay couples also against surrogacy for infertile straight couples? Are you against IVF?
I mean, is it natural straight pregnancy or nothing, or where is the boundary?

I am reading the room and that's why I'm curious. Thank you.

Yes, I'm against all surrogacy. HTH

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 20/10/2022 17:37

Yes this is exactly what I think. Possible exceptions are - your sister / cousin / good friend offers. But in general, no, they should adopt or remain childless. Men do not have the right to rent women's bodied in my opinion.

I agree.

ChateauMargaux · 20/10/2022 17:39

@NicLondon1 ."There is a whole community of surrogates who do make a living from this and enjoy it."

No one is making a 'living' from surrogacy... in the UK, they are entitled to get 'reasonable expenses'.. and even if they were popping out a baby every year of their working life for €50,000 ... they would not be doing so under the banner of informed consent because to do so would be extremely detrimental to their own health.. not to mention... biologically unlikely to be sustainable.

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 17:42

Oh! And the reason for the photo/size discrepancy in the timeline is that the babies were born on the 1st September and the couple arrived on the 5th of September and Edward stayed there until the 13th October before exhausting hope heading back to Ireland (not sure if husband Patrick came back sooner, presumably only one of them has a right to adoptive/paternity leave beyond the first few weeks?).

So the girls are 6 weeks old in that photo.
I feel so sad for them, and worried for their mother, as if the agency are shaking down the couple for extra cash, I doubt the women they hire are treated with much respect.

A triplet pregnancy is so hard on the body, too.

TheBiologyStupid · 20/10/2022 17:43

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 20/10/2022 17:05

Yes, I am saying that no-one should be able to buy a baby or buy the use of another human'd body to grow them a baby. If that leaves adoption or remaining childless, so be it.

The act of taking a new born from its mother (and yes the surrogate mother is the mother, she is the only mother the baby knows, regardless of whose egg) is abhorrent. We don't do that to puppies. We don't do it to non-surrogate babies except in extreme cases of child endangerment because we know the damage it does to the child. The child should always, always be the priority. But apparently as soon as money changes hands it's ok to take a newborn baby away from the mother who has grown and birthed it, despite the fact that the baby is barely capable of realising it is a separate entity to the mother. It is cruel and inhumane.

Agreed absolutely.

Soontobe60 · 20/10/2022 17:43

NicLondon1 · 20/10/2022 16:22

@SirSamVimesCityWatch @RoseslnTheHospital How do you suggest gay couples have babies...? Are you saying they should adopt only?

I have friends currently going through surrogacy, and the surrogates are not victims, they love doing it and love being pregnant. There is a whole community of surrogates who do make a living from this and enjoy it.

(Not saying that was the case in this case, in which it is entirely possible a poor Kenyan woman was exploited, but I'm not against it when it works and all parties are happy)

No one should be ‘making a living’ from having a baby for someone else. It’s immoral. Shame on your ‘friends’.

Soontobe60 · 20/10/2022 17:49

NicLondon1 · 20/10/2022 16:31

I have no idea if coercion or informed consent took place, there is no evidence that it did either. And I totally agree they should have been fully informed, I said that in my original post, the agency has failed them.

However, are those of you against surrogacy for gay couples also against surrogacy for infertile straight couples? Are you against IVF?
I mean, is it natural straight pregnancy or nothing, or where is the boundary?

I am reading the room and that's why I'm curious. Thank you.

I am against surrogacy in all possible cases. There is NEVER a justifiable reason to buy and sell a human being, whether they are already born or in utero.
I know many gay couples and single people who are parents despite not being able to give birth. Adoption is how it happens- surrogacy is the most selfish thing someone can do to become a parent.

azimuth299 · 20/10/2022 17:51

NicLondon1 · 20/10/2022 16:31

I have no idea if coercion or informed consent took place, there is no evidence that it did either. And I totally agree they should have been fully informed, I said that in my original post, the agency has failed them.

However, are those of you against surrogacy for gay couples also against surrogacy for infertile straight couples? Are you against IVF?
I mean, is it natural straight pregnancy or nothing, or where is the boundary?

I am reading the room and that's why I'm curious. Thank you.

I'm against all surrogacy. It's absolutely nothing to do with this being a gay couple and everything to do with the fact that they have rented a woman and bought children. I believe that this goes against human dignity and should not be allowed in any circumstances.

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 17:52

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 17:34

If he's the biological father and on the birth certificate why would he need to adopt them?

Show quote history

According to the article that route doesn’t automatically allow the biological father to take the baby out of the country.

The mother’s rights (and presumably the baby’s Kenyan nationality through mum) have to first be relinquished through the courts.

Otherwise it’s officially baby trafficking (not just morally baby trafficking).

ChateauMargaux · 20/10/2022 17:53

This again is another illustration of the emotions described by Tracee Ellis Ross.

The innocuous makes space for the horrific and women have to live with the effects of both and everything in between.

When someone helps themselves to a woman's body, it not only triggers discomfort and distress, but the unspoken experiences of our mothers' lives, our sisters' lives and generations of women before us.

Women, I encourage you to acknowledge your fury. Give it language. Your fury is not something to be afraid of. It holds lifetimes of wisdom. Let it breathe. Listen.

We are told it is wrong to speak what we feel because we are denying gay men the right to be parents and women who want to be surrogates for their friend the right to bestow that gift, willingly offered...

The innocuous gives way to the horriffic .. and three babies born to an oppressed women in Kenya to parents who do not have the funds to pay for their medical care is horriffic and if you don't think so @NicLondon1 ... then I despair for the future of women even more that I did this morning.

JacquelinePot · 20/10/2022 17:54

Surrogacy is an abhorrent practice regardless of:

  • the sexuality of the people who are [gag] commissioning the creation of a human being
  • how lovely those doing the commissioning might be
  • how great they'll be as parents
  • how desperately they want to hire a woman to gestate and birth a baby for them
  • whether they will pay the birth mother generously
  • or if said birth mother a) loves being pregnant b) wants to do it c) is happy to hand over her newborn baby

This is human trafficking however much some people might want to believe it's a Good Thing.

No one has the right to have children. No one should have the right to buy a baby. No one should be able to induce a female friend or family member to participate in a process that will involve the creation of a human life for the express purpose of giving that child away soon after birth. Just. No.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 20/10/2022 17:55

NicLondon1 · 20/10/2022 16:31

I have no idea if coercion or informed consent took place, there is no evidence that it did either. And I totally agree they should have been fully informed, I said that in my original post, the agency has failed them.

However, are those of you against surrogacy for gay couples also against surrogacy for infertile straight couples? Are you against IVF?
I mean, is it natural straight pregnancy or nothing, or where is the boundary?

I am reading the room and that's why I'm curious. Thank you.

I'm against all surrogacy, no matter what sexual orientation the person wanting to buy a baby maybe. Surrogacy should be banned.

picklemewalnuts · 20/10/2022 18:00

The silence around the moral issues of trafficking babies via surrogacy is what allows this couple to be so ignorant and naive as to believe they could pay to rent the womb of a woman with few options, on the far side if the world, and buy three babies.

The complacency of people like NicLondon and her friends makes them complicit in this terrible tragedy.

Somewhere there is a woman who was badly paid to risk her life to carry triplets she can't keep.
There are motherless triplets in hospital with no one responsible for them.
There are two sad, broke men who believed they could have babies, because that's what the media told them.

If you are not arguing against surrogacy, then you are complicit in all these tragedies.

PurplRainDancer · 20/10/2022 18:03

He can’t even spell ‘surrogacy’ says it all.

Clymene · 20/10/2022 18:09

Even if you don't think surrogacy is utterly abhorrent, anyone who feels sorry for a man (or a couple of men) who put a woman and babies' lives at massive risk by implanting multiple embryos in some kind of sick BOGOF deal, needs to look at themselves.

ThirtyThreeTrees · 20/10/2022 18:21

When did we stop understanding that life isn't fair. Everyone cannot have children. It's upsetting, it can cause huge anger, stressed, emotional issues but it's just the way it is.

A child is not an entitlement, it is a privilege.

I think commercial surrogacy is wrong on all forms. I'm not as convinced that it is as bad a concept where it is a willing family member or friend but even then that's without it's complications.

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 18:57

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 17:52

According to the article that route doesn’t automatically allow the biological father to take the baby out of the country.

The mother’s rights (and presumably the baby’s Kenyan nationality through mum) have to first be relinquished through the courts.

Otherwise it’s officially baby trafficking (not just morally baby trafficking).

Show quote history

I can understand the baby is Kenyan (although presumably also Irish through the father) so rules about one parent taking them out of the country, it is specifically the adoption I don't understand. Why would he have to adopt his babies, if he is the biological father of course.

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 19:00

PurplRainDancer · 20/10/2022 18:03

He can’t even spell ‘surrogacy’ says it all.

That is really unfair. Do people normally have to have a spelling test before they can become a parent? If you believe surrogacy is wrong why do you need to bring the argument down to his spelling? Maybe his first language is Irish Gaelic. How's your spelling in Irish Gaelic?

VaddaABeetch · 20/10/2022 19:03

@ancientgran his first language is not Irish.

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 19:11

VaddaABeetch · 20/10/2022 19:03

@ancientgran his first language is not Irish.

Did @PurplRainDancer know that when making stupid remarks about his spelling? As if being able to spell is the qualification for being a parent.

RFPO77 · 20/10/2022 19:17

“I’m in my own war, I know the situation is different to the one in Ukraine but I’d rather be in a bombshell in Ukraine with my kids in my arms than have them 5,000 miles away from me, not knowing if they’re safe or not.”"

I have no words 🙄

Clymene · 20/10/2022 19:23

He's clearly got dyslexia or similar. Let's not let that distract us from the abhorrent behaviour of these men

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 19:41

ancientgran · 20/10/2022 18:57

I can understand the baby is Kenyan (although presumably also Irish through the father) so rules about one parent taking them out of the country, it is specifically the adoption I don't understand. Why would he have to adopt his babies, if he is the biological father of course.

Show quote history

According to the linked article, heterosexual couples do the adoption route (so that both mum and dad have legal parental responsibility, not just dad)

This is not a route open to gay couples due to Kenya’s legal position on homosexuality so bio dad has to have a DNA test and then go to court for a parenting order that relinquishes the birth mums rights.

The court can refuse to sign off on adoptions and parenting orders. Nothing is guaranteed due to Kenya having no specific surrogacy laws, just a hodgepodge of other laws that are being adapted or loopholed

Both court processes are long and expensive.

It’s all in the linked article. Bio dad can’t just pretend to have conceived with surrogate mum in a normal way and take the baby because they don’t let Kenyan born babies leave with foreign, non resident dads who aren’t married to mum under Kenya’s prevention of trafficking laws (presumably they have a good reason to organise things this way? An unmarried foreign dad without legal parental responsibility wouldn’t be allowed to leave the UK with a newborn either, especially when the baby doesn’t have a passport).

Besides, all the hospital staff are well aware that mum was a surrogate, so dad can’t start denying it now, that would be fraudulent. And acting fraudulently would be sufficient reason to take the babies into social services care.

And yes, the babies will be entitled to Irish citizenship but dad can’t apply for Irish passports until the DNA test and birth certificate paperwork is complete. This all costs money.