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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling

673 replies

SwanageBay · 17/10/2022 12:41

Well that's one less beardy man on there defending rape and death threats.

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling
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ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 14:33

No, that's not what I mean.

It's just that only public/majority support will change things and this isn't going to help.

ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 14:34

Clymene · 17/10/2022 14:25

Right gotcha @ByTheGrace. So people who seem reasonable are criticising her for people calling him out.

And so we shouldn't call him out as the tide is turning.

Right-o.

Sorry the above post didn't quote, I was replying to this.

BuryingAcorns · 17/10/2022 14:35

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 13:36

His response was measured, intelligent, reasonable and I agree with him entirely. JKR put vile words in his mouth when he said or implied nothing of the sort. I feel very sorry for him.

No she didn't. Ironically you are putting words into her mouth.

Look at what she actually said, not what people who hate her wish she had said so their hatred could be justified.

Soontobe60 · 17/10/2022 14:35

The fact that he’s been exposed as a woman hater with his gross parody of Jade Goody, along with him paying a girl money to gave her breasts amputated says if all. That’s why he’s deleted his account

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:37

BuryingAcorns · 17/10/2022 14:35

No she didn't. Ironically you are putting words into her mouth.

Look at what she actually said, not what people who hate her wish she had said so their hatred could be justified.

This is what she actually said.

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling
continueorterminate · 17/10/2022 14:38

Not rtft, so forgive me if I'm wrong or got the wrong person....
A few weeks back I was listening to Chris Evans breakfast radio show just before Carfest started. He'd been plugging the line up for WEEKS and then right at the end he excitedly mentioned that JK was a guest and that he was sorry he hadn't mentioned her before, excuses excuses,blah blah blah, and I thought to myself " they sensibly haven't plugged her til now because they want to avoid any protests". CE then said how special a guest she was, how rare her appearances were and that the main reason she was appearing was because her very good friend Graham Norton was going to he interviewing her.
Did anyone else hear this or even see her at Carfest? Did I dream this? Coz I thought they were friends?

justasking111 · 17/10/2022 14:38

ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 13:28

I'm a bit uneasy about this one, looking at all the latest Tweets about this and there are so many in support of him. This could back fire on JK, I really hope it doesn't.
But his comments have seemed really measured (albeit fence sitting) there doesn't really seem any explanation of what has happened. Twitter suggests he helped fund a mastectomy (as did Stephen Fry), was mean to Jade Goody and hasn't stood up for Graham Lineham. Not really grounds for cancellation.

Stephen Fry paid for a mastectomy??

TrainedByCats · 17/10/2022 14:39

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:09

@TrainedByCats

This, from her tweet: "Very much enjoying the recent spate of bearded men stepping confidently onto their soapboxes to define what a woman is and throw their support behind rape and death threats to those who dare disagree. You may mock, but takes real bravery to come out as an Old Testament prophet."

If Graham only talked about listening to trans people and parents of trans kids and didn’t mention also listening to women, parents concerned about social contagion and those who have detransitioned then he is supporting only one side, and it is the side that includes a substantial number of people who are issuing the rape and death threats to those who dare disagree. That statement isn’t saying he’s issuing those threats personally.

If he did indeed also say listen to women, listen to parents worried about their children coming under undue pressure, listen to the brave detransitioners who are coming out to say I needed counselling before hormones and surgery, listen to all the people raising safeguarding concerns please let me know where as comparing him to an Old Testament prophet would be a bit harsh if he's speaking up for women too

Princessglittery · 17/10/2022 14:40

I am really concerned how people are reacting, including JKR, to what Graham Norton said. The same goes for how people react to JKR and others in the public eye.

No debate was wrong but a mud slinging debate is even worse for both sides.

Graham Norton did not cancel JKR, he showed her respect as a novelist by having him on her radio programme to promote her new book and asking pertinent questions. Given the subject of the novel they touched on Twitter etc. but did not go into the GC/Trans/self ID debate. It is not right JKR is trying to drag him into the debate.

We theoretically live in a country that has free speech, which includes the right to not join in a debate, state your position etc. I suspect, like many people, GN’s personal position is nuanced and he may not be au fait with all the arguments. He very clearly has tried to not enter the debate and both sides are not happy with him, so he can’t win.

I believe their are people who have gender dysphoria and they should be treated with dignity and respect. I do not believe children should be given puberty blockers, cross sex hormones or surgery. I believe counselling and evidence based advice should be given to adults, not conversion therapy, before they make irreversible decisions.

I also believe there are far more male human beings, some with paraphillia’s, who are using the trans umbrella to access vulnerable women and children. In the process they are also harming people with gender dysphoria.

One of the most powerful tools we have is to keep the debate respectful. GC supporters who resort to mud slinging, being disrespectful, trying to drag people into a debate they don’t want to be part of are not helping.

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:41

AryaStarkWolf · 17/10/2022 14:32

Well he was clearly referring to something she'd said about women's rights and the clash between those and what trans people (specifically transwomen) are looking for. Most of what JKR said on that subject is in relation to women's safety and safe guarding so it's not a stretch to think he's talking about that? I'm sure Graham doesn't actively support the rape or murder of women and was just paying lip service to the TRA mob but considering JKR hasn't actually said anything transphobic she's going to have to take a guess on things she's actually said....

This is my point, you say "it's not a stretch to think he's talking about that?". You're assuming, interpreting based on previous things said. This is exactly what people who think JKR is transphobic are doing. They are reading her words and interpreting them as hate-filled and the defense is that she didn't say anything transphobic and that people are twisting and assuming her words and meanings. Same is being done to Norton now, exact same thing and it's caused by JKR.

Datun · 17/10/2022 14:41

ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 14:33

No, that's not what I mean.

It's just that only public/majority support will change things and this isn't going to help.

I know what you're saying. He's a very popular celebrity.

But there comes a time. There comes a point.

There isn't a single person underneath the articles in mainstream media now, who doesn't agree with what JkR is saying. The tide has turned. Graham, is late to the zeitgeist.

I, for one, am perfectly happy for his legions of fans to become more aware of this issue.

It's not just about women's space and rights, now. It's about the way they are being treated when they try to discuss it. It's indefensible from anybody.

So let's see who does it.

And yes, I'd bloody well forgotten that he had said JKR seemed to get off on the aggro.

But suddenly everyone gets the collywobbles when you actually say it's rape and death threats. Oh no, not that kind of aggro. Just the other aggro. You know, the 'sensible aggro'.

Helleofabore · 17/10/2022 14:42

This is the relevant section:

Relevant section of the Times interview with Graham Norton

Norton: You read a lot of articles in papers, by people complaining about cancel culture. And you think, ‘in what world are you cancelled?’. I am reading your article in a newspaper, you are doing interviews about how terrible it is to be cancelled. I think that the word is the ‘wrong word’.
I think the word should be ‘accountability’. [discusses John Cleese] It’s free speech but not consequence free.

Continues.

Presenter: ‘for example JK Rowling then, that is harder to make point with. When you look at someone expressing what may or may not be popular opinions, but to be deluged with the kind of anger, rage and attempts at censorship, it seems to me to be more than a middle aged man not being able say something he used to say in the days of empire.’

Norton: ‘What I feel about this is, when I am asked about it then I become part of the discussion. And all I am painfully aware of is that my voice adds nothing to that discussion. And I am sort of embarrassed that I am somehow drawn into it’.
If people want to shine a light on those issues, and I hope that people do, then talk to trans people, talk to the parents of trans kids, talk to the doctors, talk to someone who can illuminate this in some way’.

'You know I am very aware as a bloke off the tele that your voice can be artificially amplified. Once in a blue moon that can be good. But most of the time it is just a distraction. And it is for clicks, it is for, you know, you can put my name in a headline. ‘Graham Norton slams, Graham Norton defends, Graham Norton weighs in on’. And actually Graham Norton shouldn’t be in your headline.'

'If you want to talk about something, talk about the thing. You don’t need to attach a Kardashian, or whatever to a subject. The subject should be enough in itself.”

‘It is the Michael Gove thing about enough experts. No. Please can we have some experts. Can we rustle up some fucking experts and talk to them rather than man in shiny pink suit.”

Presenter: But I think you would also argue that discussion is good. It is what you have mostly spent the whole of your career doing.

Norton:
So I sit beside people laughing at them. That is my job. [and goes on about his opinion]

Then goes on to Eurovision.

My interpretation is that he has narrowed 'his' discussion to children transitioning. He is ignoring the other things that JK Rowling 'talks' about. Either he has judged her based on one issue (and by the way, which EXPERTS Graham? Mermaids? Webberley? Polly Carmichael? ) and has not bothered to look further into it before disparaging her in the past with 'wanging' on about her book etc as posted up thread. Or, he has selectively chosen that point to then make out that the discussion that women who are getting cancelled for is not about the rights of women and girls so only trans voices should be listened to.

Either way, he has had plenty of time to clarify what he said and which groups should have their voices heard and which should not.

His statements about 'cancel culture', spectacularly miss the point and are simply 'sparple'. It is distraction.

However, he is right that his opinion on this should not be amplified and that experts should be listened to. He is wrong in that he only points to the 'trans' voices, which is a clear indication which voices he considers as having legitimate reasons to be heard.

As I have said, I am not sure why people are minimising the impact of his words here. He is very clearly disparaging women saying they are 'cancelled' and then excluding them from the 'experts' to be listened to. And while the latter may not have been intended, that is the effect and he could have clarified what he meant.

Did he? Did he clarify that he included women's voices as having legitimate needs and I missed it? I am quite happy to be linked up to where he did.

ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 14:43

justasking111 · 17/10/2022 14:38

Stephen Fry paid for a mastectomy??

I'm taking info from Twitter here, so caveats and all that. But Norton and Fry allegedly donated to crowd funding for top surgery aka a mastectomy for a transman, Norton's donation was far larger.

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:43

TrainedByCats · 17/10/2022 14:39

If Graham only talked about listening to trans people and parents of trans kids and didn’t mention also listening to women, parents concerned about social contagion and those who have detransitioned then he is supporting only one side, and it is the side that includes a substantial number of people who are issuing the rape and death threats to those who dare disagree. That statement isn’t saying he’s issuing those threats personally.

If he did indeed also say listen to women, listen to parents worried about their children coming under undue pressure, listen to the brave detransitioners who are coming out to say I needed counselling before hormones and surgery, listen to all the people raising safeguarding concerns please let me know where as comparing him to an Old Testament prophet would be a bit harsh if he's speaking up for women too

And I would agree with you if the whole interview or a portion of the interview had been solely about his views on this entire thing. This was his quick response to a question he didn't want to answer.

It's very similar to the whole Twitter mentality of saying "I love cats" and the responses being "So you despise dogs and hope they all die? Because you didn't specify, you see."

Helleofabore · 17/10/2022 14:45

Same is being done to Norton now

Graham Norton disparaged women who were saying they were being cancelled.

'And you think, ‘in what world are you cancelled?’. I am reading your article in a newspaper, you are doing interviews about how terrible it is to be cancelled. I think that the word is the ‘wrong word’.'

'I think the word should be ‘accountability’.... It’s free speech but not consequence free.'

Helleofabore · 17/10/2022 14:46

And I would agree with you if the whole interview or a portion of the interview had been solely about his views on this entire thing. This was his quick response to a question he didn't want to answer.

What he said about 'cancel culture' seemed pretty clear and cohesive.

AryaStarkWolf · 17/10/2022 14:48

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:41

This is my point, you say "it's not a stretch to think he's talking about that?". You're assuming, interpreting based on previous things said. This is exactly what people who think JKR is transphobic are doing. They are reading her words and interpreting them as hate-filled and the defense is that she didn't say anything transphobic and that people are twisting and assuming her words and meanings. Same is being done to Norton now, exact same thing and it's caused by JKR.

It isn't the same at all though JKR said lots of things but when people say she's transphobic, they can't give any examples of that transphobia. Graham Norton is doing the same thing, saying her views are "problematic" but not saying which ones or why they are. He's doing what TRAs do all the time as well. If he's going to insult her and accuse her of being "problematic" without saying why then people are going to guess what he's talking about. You can't say it's the same the other way round because JKR has been very specific about what she's worried about, she hasn't been cryptic and she's always explained what she means

EndlessTea · 17/10/2022 14:49

People who say ‘cancel culture’ is actually ‘accountability’ are cowardly, authoritarian sadists.

The reason why, is because the way it CC functions is to publicly shame, silence and deprive someone of income, for having unpopular views. (‘Problematic’ is the modern name for unpopular views).

Anyone who ‘sticks the mud’, of calling someone’s views ‘problematic’, on a person, is authoritarian because they know that this person is now a marked person, to be shunned, shamed, silenced and punished and kept in line under authoritarian control and limited to expressing only popular views if they don’t want to suffer.

The way the punishment, shaming and silencing is meted out to a marked person is through depriving them of income eg- Maya Forstater, ensuring that they cannot get speaking gigs eg- Julie Bindel, punishing them with death and rape threats, eg JK Rowling, also vexatious litigation eg- Ceri Black, or using the police as attack dogs eg- Caroline Farrow, so that they live in fear.

This is Cancel Culture and it is disproportionate and completely insane to treat people like this in a democracy.

The euphemism for this authoritarian cruelty, by the perpetrators is ‘accountability’. It is a way of saying ‘you deserve everything you get’, but being too cowardly to come out with it.

So by marking JK as ‘problematic’ (although admittedly, he wasn’t the first) and saying that cancel culture is ‘accountability’ shows that he thinks JK Rowling deserves everything she gets - rape threats and all.

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:51

Helleofabore · 17/10/2022 14:45

Same is being done to Norton now

Graham Norton disparaged women who were saying they were being cancelled.

'And you think, ‘in what world are you cancelled?’. I am reading your article in a newspaper, you are doing interviews about how terrible it is to be cancelled. I think that the word is the ‘wrong word’.'

'I think the word should be ‘accountability’.... It’s free speech but not consequence free.'

Was he talking specifically about women there? About GC women who are arrested for putting stickers on lampposts? About GC women who are fired for their views? Because he doesn't say. He could just as easily be talking about all of the rich white men in Hollywood who have kept their jobs and movie roles and book deals despite being "cancelled" online. Of Hayley Williams from Paramore being "cancelled" for having the word "whore" in a song she wrote when she was a teenager, yet still touring and being a brilliant muscian. If it's ok to assume/interpret when it comes to what Norton says, then it's ok to do it to JKR.

ByTheGrace · 17/10/2022 14:51

@justasking111

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling
EndlessTea · 17/10/2022 14:53

BTW I don’t think Norton ‘attacked’ JK Rowling, but he did put a mark on her and imply that she deserves everything she gets.

Datun · 17/10/2022 14:55

AryaStarkWolf · 17/10/2022 14:48

It isn't the same at all though JKR said lots of things but when people say she's transphobic, they can't give any examples of that transphobia. Graham Norton is doing the same thing, saying her views are "problematic" but not saying which ones or why they are. He's doing what TRAs do all the time as well. If he's going to insult her and accuse her of being "problematic" without saying why then people are going to guess what he's talking about. You can't say it's the same the other way round because JKR has been very specific about what she's worried about, she hasn't been cryptic and she's always explained what she means

Exactly. He is 'hinting' to escape the ire of TRAs. Which is remarkable, given he claims , almost simultaneously, that whatever he says is an amplification.

I don't think many people are in any doubt, now, that he knows fuck all about the issue, and, like a lot of men, just assumes that a little bit of manly common sense can sort it all out, and let's be kind to trans people, and sorry, I don't know anything about the women in this scenario, I only know about JKR because she can still get an interview in the papers. And she doesn't really count, because she's 'problematic' and likes a bit of a brawl.

Do I want him cancelled? No, not at all. I think he's very funny and very clever. Although, not quite as clever as I thought he was five minutes ago.

Feyrethefae · 17/10/2022 14:55

AryaStarkWolf · 17/10/2022 14:48

It isn't the same at all though JKR said lots of things but when people say she's transphobic, they can't give any examples of that transphobia. Graham Norton is doing the same thing, saying her views are "problematic" but not saying which ones or why they are. He's doing what TRAs do all the time as well. If he's going to insult her and accuse her of being "problematic" without saying why then people are going to guess what he's talking about. You can't say it's the same the other way round because JKR has been very specific about what she's worried about, she hasn't been cryptic and she's always explained what she means

It is, though.
Can you (general you) give examples of Graham Norton supporting the rape and murder of women? No, because he hasn't said so. Can people point JKRs support of the rape and murder of transpeople? No, because she hasn't said so.

Can people listen to Norton's words in this interview, look back at everything he's ever said, interpret it in different ways, fill in the blanks with assumptions, connect various dots and come to the conclusion that he hates women and doesn't care if they're murdered? If they can, then the same can be done to JKRs words.

Ofcourseshecan · 17/10/2022 14:55

RoyalCorgi · 17/10/2022 13:19

Someone on Twitter reported that he had donated £1,500 to a young woman to help fund her double mastectomy, thus suggesting it was not entirely accurate to claim (as he did) that he had never engaged with or had any involvement in trans issues.

Someone on Twitter reported that he had donated £1,500 to a young woman to help fund her double mastectomy

If true, that should haunt him for the rest of his life. He doesn’t have the excuse of mental-health problems.

Helleofabore · 17/10/2022 14:55

MoltenLasagne · 17/10/2022 14:23

The timeline goes:
Graham has JK on his show
Graham gets a load of stick for it from TRAs
Graham writes a piece in The Times defending his decision and calling JK's views "problematic" and saying that she enjoys the "pub brawl" nature of getting abuse (i.e. rape and death threats) on twitter.
In the meantime shit is going down with Mermaids and people start getting jumpy.
Graham then gets asked about cancel culture and now tries to distance himself "ask the experts, I'm just a celebrity" without reversing on his previous claims that JK is problematic and enjoys the twitter abuse. He also fans the flames by saying cancel culture is just accountability because people who get fired can always go to the newspapers.
People point out he can't pretend he's neutral all of a sudden after being a bit of a twat and then dig into further lack of neutrality.
Graham decides that accountability is a bit much after all and deletes his twitter.

Yes.

If Graham Norton had not previously named and 'shamed' Joanne Rowling, then maybe there would be some discussion about interpretation.

The presenter (Mariella?) specifically asks about JK Rowling and Graham Norton then waffles on about 'experts'.

What other interpretations should we be considering here?

That he simply didn't want to discuss Joanne Rowling, but wanted to make a point or a virtue signal in all that waffle? But he switched to the more emotive 'transitioning children' topic in an attempt at a sleight of hand to prove that Joanne Rowling should not be listened to at all?

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