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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling

673 replies

SwanageBay · 17/10/2022 12:41

Well that's one less beardy man on there defending rape and death threats.

Graham Norton has terminated his Twitter account after attacking JK Rowling
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Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/10/2022 12:56

GN could easily, easily! have said the moment JKR was raised

“I don’t agree with her view but no one should be sent death threats”

or

”I think we can all agree whatever our view on this issue that no one should be threatened with violence”

but he didn’t

he said her views were problematic & despite being given the opportunity to condemn violent threats against her or anyone,

but he didn’t

that’s his right of course but it’s hardly surprising he’s been called out on it

Feyrethefae · 18/10/2022 12:58

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 12:51

Billy Bragg tweeted:

Norton really good here on John Cleese, telling him that ‘cancel culture’ is just accountability, and JK Rowling, suggesting that the media talk directly to trans teens and their parents rather than merely amplifying the takes of a celebrity. 4.41 pm 13 Oct 2022

Just to pull this out:

Norton really good here on John Cleese, telling him that ‘cancel culture’ is just accountability, and JK Rowling,

Bragg is saying here very explicitly that 'cancel culture' is just 'accountability.'

The full tweet from Joanne Rowling was

Very much enjoying the recent spate of bearded men stepping confidently onto their soapboxes to define what a woman is and throw their support behind rape and death threats to those who dare disagree. You may mock, but takes real bravery to come out as an Old Testament prophet. 6.20 pm 13 Oct 2020

Surely it can be just as easily interpreted that this tweet is stating that it is acknowledged that 'cancel culture' also includes rape and death threats to women who disagree that gender identity should be prioritised above sex in all instance, including those where sex matters?

And that some males who publicly speak about 'cancel culture' being just 'accountability' are ignoring this fact?

I mean, it is clearly sarcastic and it is clearly hyperbolic because she uses words like soapboxes and Old Testament prophet. No doubt about it. However, by doing so, she is also making a point that males seem to be ignoring the aspect of cancel culture that includes women receiving rape and death threats. As she has experienced herself.

I think you're twisting yourself into knots trying to defend what has JKR said. I read her tweet and came to the conclusion that she was making a statement/accusation that "bearded men" (BB and GN both men with beards. One tweeting a video of the other, so obviously about them) are throwing their support behind threats of rape and murder towards women. Countless other people came to that same conclusion. That it is an unfounded accusation.

You're using terms such as "easily interpreted" and "it is clearly sarcastic and it is clearly hyperbolic" but obviously it isn't to the vast majority of people who are debating this on the internet. If Graham Norton should have the responsibility of clarifying exactly what he did/didn't mean or he's exposed to people "interpreting" his words and "assuming what he means", then JKR should too and should expect the assumptions and interpretations as well.

The fact that she hasn't, the fact that BB has since confirmed (directly to JKR) that he doesn't support threats of any kind and the fact that JKRs original tweet is still standing, speaks volumes.

All I'm saying, personally, is that JKR is being a hypocrite here and I think she made a bad move in making that accusation. If she would come back on Twitter and apologise for accusing BB/GN/whoever she meant, that she made a mistake whilst angry, then that would show her in a much more positive light. I hope she does.

justasking111 · 18/10/2022 12:59

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ReneBumsWombats · 18/10/2022 13:00

I think a lot of men do not understand how frightening death and rape threats are. They reason that these people are extremely unlikely ever to act upon it (which I imagine is little comfort for Salman Rushdie and his loved ones) and therefore they don't matter.

It isn't the point. And even if these nutters never do actually attack JKR, they're still contributing to a culture where women are surrounded by this and it's normalised.

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:06

Datun · 18/10/2022 12:20

Yeah, they're more rattled than normal. The mermaids fiasco probably.

But comparing JKR's gargantuan charitable output to Jimmy Savile's use of charity to cover his abuse, is a particular low.

And eminently sue-able I should think.

In fact didn't JK threaten legal action against another TRA for similar?

She puts up with a lot, but being compared to Savile crosses her line.

As per normal gender criticals putting two and two and making five. I never said she was like saville I said in response to someone saying that’s she’s nice because she gives to charity it doesn’t make you a nice person aka saville also gave to charity and he was a monster. You guys only see what you want to see don’t you?

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:10

JoodyBlue · 18/10/2022 12:44

dropped onto the end of this thread - a question for those calling out JKR for any damn thing, why aren't you outraged that there are death and rape threats towards women for simply speaking about anything? Why isn't BB outraged? Why isn't GN outraged? Regardless of all squabbling around who said what and blah blah interpretation. Good people would be outraged at this type of behaviour towards women. You are not the good guys.

You know what I abhor death threats but let’s get this into some thing there are death threats against trans people to by the very same people that side with your side does that make me think you are all crazy nope there is extreme views. Just like there are extreme views in some people that post death threats to jk rowling. Right now I follow some trans accounts that have shown the death threats they have had to but you don’t see me saying you all want to give trans people death threats because that’s not how it works. Jk rowling was subtly suggesting that by saying trans people should have a say and they should means you stand by death threats that’s stupid reasoning

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:12

Feyrethefae · 18/10/2022 12:40

If people are calling that accountability, then don't be bloody surprised when women ask you to be a little bit more specific.

If JKR tweets something that everyone takes to be directed at Graham Norton, then don't be bloody surprised when people ask her to be a little bit more specific.
If JKR tweets a statement that BB/GN support the threats of rape and murder against women, everyone takes it as a statement except a few saying it's a question, then don't be bloody surprised when people ask her to be a little bit more specific.

Exactly she knew what she was doing

midgetastic · 18/10/2022 13:12

Subtly suggesting

Aka I am deliberately reading more into this than she said

Ie I am making it up

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:15

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Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:16

midgetastic · 18/10/2022 13:12

Subtly suggesting

Aka I am deliberately reading more into this than she said

Ie I am making it up

Funny how so many agree though with me she overstepped this time by doing this on Graham Norton it’s why the media are picking it up this time

Feyrethefae · 18/10/2022 13:18

midgetastic · 18/10/2022 13:12

Subtly suggesting

Aka I am deliberately reading more into this than she said

Ie I am making it up

Ironic, considering that's exactly what JKR has done to BB/GN and what posters are doing to them here, also.

Wouldn't it be great for everyone, JKR included, if we all spoke more plainly and didn't read one thing and reach far enough to turn it into something else entirely?

WinterTrees · 18/10/2022 13:21

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:06

As per normal gender criticals putting two and two and making five. I never said she was like saville I said in response to someone saying that’s she’s nice because she gives to charity it doesn’t make you a nice person aka saville also gave to charity and he was a monster. You guys only see what you want to see don’t you?

The thread has moved on and I wasn't going to bother backtracking to pick up on you invoking Savile in response to my post about JKR's immense charitable legacy (alongside her body of work, its clear messaging and overwhelming positive impact on children, and her championing of people whose voices aren't heard)

Savile used charity as a front for his abuse, and a means of giving him access to vulnerable people. It was his sole reason for doing charity work. It wasn't a case of him having a real heartfelt desire to help those less fortunate, but - oops, awkward - he also just happened to be a manipulative sexual predator of the worst kind. He is entirely irrelevant to the point at hand. (Except always useful to remember that safeguarding should always be paramount and apply to everyone, no exceptions.)

Did you have anything to say about the resurfacing of those pictures of Graham Norton in a fat suit mocking Jade Goody, and the possible connection with him disappearing from Twitter after his pious 'accountability' comment?

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:22

Feyrethefae · 18/10/2022 12:58

I think you're twisting yourself into knots trying to defend what has JKR said. I read her tweet and came to the conclusion that she was making a statement/accusation that "bearded men" (BB and GN both men with beards. One tweeting a video of the other, so obviously about them) are throwing their support behind threats of rape and murder towards women. Countless other people came to that same conclusion. That it is an unfounded accusation.

You're using terms such as "easily interpreted" and "it is clearly sarcastic and it is clearly hyperbolic" but obviously it isn't to the vast majority of people who are debating this on the internet. If Graham Norton should have the responsibility of clarifying exactly what he did/didn't mean or he's exposed to people "interpreting" his words and "assuming what he means", then JKR should too and should expect the assumptions and interpretations as well.

The fact that she hasn't, the fact that BB has since confirmed (directly to JKR) that he doesn't support threats of any kind and the fact that JKRs original tweet is still standing, speaks volumes.

All I'm saying, personally, is that JKR is being a hypocrite here and I think she made a bad move in making that accusation. If she would come back on Twitter and apologise for accusing BB/GN/whoever she meant, that she made a mistake whilst angry, then that would show her in a much more positive light. I hope she does.

And isn't it a wonderful thing that people can read and come to their own interpretations.

It is fine to accuse her of being a hypocrite. I mean, I have accused you of posting hypocritical analysis as well. People should be always free to discuss and analyse public commentary together. It doesn't mean they have to agree.

It does mean however that where people are making bad faith and rather absolutist accusations, that should be pointed out where others disagree.

JoodyBlue · 18/10/2022 13:26

what about the nutters that side with your side wishing harm on trans people the stuff that kjk posie Parker has said is fucking disgusting but hey ho that’s ok right?

What are on earth? Who bought KJK into anything? How is that relevant?

Maybe no body should have death threats or rape threats maybe thee needs to be civilised conversations where we don’t call trans people mentally I’ll or we don’t misgender them let’s be civil

Yes - well obviously! Although I will reserve the right to see a man if I see a man. We are not quite living in a big brother society yet.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:26

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:16

Funny how so many agree though with me she overstepped this time by doing this on Graham Norton it’s why the media are picking it up this time

Not really surprising 'so many agree'. Have you seen the number of people who send her tweets disagreeing with her normally?

Do you think 'more' are sending out negative tweets? Really? Why?

I would suggest that the media is picking it up this time is that it is Graham Norton.

Feyrethefae · 18/10/2022 13:26

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:22

And isn't it a wonderful thing that people can read and come to their own interpretations.

It is fine to accuse her of being a hypocrite. I mean, I have accused you of posting hypocritical analysis as well. People should be always free to discuss and analyse public commentary together. It doesn't mean they have to agree.

It does mean however that where people are making bad faith and rather absolutist accusations, that should be pointed out where others disagree.

It does mean however that where people are making bad faith and rather absolutist accusations, that should be pointed out where others disagree.

And I agree that this is what has now happened to JKR since the posting of her accusation and that it's absolutely correct to do so.

ReneBumsWombats · 18/10/2022 13:27

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I'm interested in how combative you are determined to make this. Determined to make it about your side and my side. You want to play Oppression Olympics and that's such a regressive, counterproductive, self-serving, unintelligent approach to this. It's also a daft move on your part, because if you did tot up attacks on GC women by TRAs versus attacks on TRAs by GC women, you'd lose Oppression Olympics by miles.

I've never wished harm on trans people. Indeed, I think additional third spaces that have nothing to do with sex or gender will help make them safer because it won't matter if they don't "pass" and if they just want a safe place to wee or change that doesn't mark out their natal sex, there it is. JKR and Parker have never wished harm on trans people either. Indeed, in her famous essay, JKR explicitly acknowledged that trans people are vulnerable to male violence and empathised with a transwoman who had suffered a horrific attack, in a paragraph that still fills my eyes when I read it. She knows what that's like. So do I.

But it is an absolute fact that a certain, very loud branch of TRAs are using threats against women in a way women simply aren't using them against trans people.

The attacks you're talking about are almost exclusively by men. Dangerous men who need to be barred from female spaces, but under your ideology, would have full access and women who object would be the oppressors.

Because you are determined to be combative and play Oppression Olympics, you are trying to suggest that it's mostly women sending threats and so on. It so patently isn't that it's making you look too foolish, and blinded by anger and combativeness, to engage with.

GC women are aware that the problem is dangerous men. You think that the problem is non-consenting women who won't shut up.

nilsmousehammer · 18/10/2022 13:28

Maybe no body should have death threats or rape threats

Yeah I'll get behind that.

But you immediately move onto 'if you stop mentioning any bits of reality that some TQ+ political activists don't like, some of them in turn might deign to stop threatening to rape and kill you'

which kind of makes it clear really that these are completely false equivalences.

About as pointless as trying to claim that comments linking Saville and Rowling were totes innocent and oh tut at you nasty minded people who'd imply otherwise - you nasty minded people being the ones screamed at for two weeks for someone right wing standing within a square mile of KJK while speaking which contaminated her and everyone who has ever had a women's rights thought....

you know what, it's just all too silly now to engage with. About as silly as Norton was.

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:31

JoodyBlue · 18/10/2022 13:26

what about the nutters that side with your side wishing harm on trans people the stuff that kjk posie Parker has said is fucking disgusting but hey ho that’s ok right?

What are on earth? Who bought KJK into anything? How is that relevant?

Maybe no body should have death threats or rape threats maybe thee needs to be civilised conversations where we don’t call trans people mentally I’ll or we don’t misgender them let’s be civil

Yes - well obviously! Although I will reserve the right to see a man if I see a man. We are not quite living in a big brother society yet.

It’s relevant because death threats don’t just happen to one side so they

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:31

Sorry do not so

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:32

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:10

You know what I abhor death threats but let’s get this into some thing there are death threats against trans people to by the very same people that side with your side does that make me think you are all crazy nope there is extreme views. Just like there are extreme views in some people that post death threats to jk rowling. Right now I follow some trans accounts that have shown the death threats they have had to but you don’t see me saying you all want to give trans people death threats because that’s not how it works. Jk rowling was subtly suggesting that by saying trans people should have a say and they should means you stand by death threats that’s stupid reasoning

Sorry. This is unclear.

Are you saying feminists are sending death threats to trans people?

Can you link some up please. This is a very serious accusation.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:32

Jk rowling was subtly suggesting that by saying trans people should have a say and they should means you stand by death threats that’s stupid reasoning

Can you please explain what you mean here too?

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:33

nilsmousehammer · 18/10/2022 13:28

Maybe no body should have death threats or rape threats

Yeah I'll get behind that.

But you immediately move onto 'if you stop mentioning any bits of reality that some TQ+ political activists don't like, some of them in turn might deign to stop threatening to rape and kill you'

which kind of makes it clear really that these are completely false equivalences.

About as pointless as trying to claim that comments linking Saville and Rowling were totes innocent and oh tut at you nasty minded people who'd imply otherwise - you nasty minded people being the ones screamed at for two weeks for someone right wing standing within a square mile of KJK while speaking which contaminated her and everyone who has ever had a women's rights thought....

you know what, it's just all too silly now to engage with. About as silly as Norton was.

Are you calling me nasty when you don’t know me wow? As for kjk she doesn’t like women like me to have a voice seen her snatch microphone off women like me funny though you guys want women to have voices but not women like me that disagree with you

JoodyBlue · 18/10/2022 13:34

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:31

Sorry do not so

I don't know - sorry! I am not aware of any death threats made by KJK or anyone else? You seem assume I would be aware of something like this. I'm not I'm afraid.

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 13:35

Helleofabore · 18/10/2022 13:32

Sorry. This is unclear.

Are you saying feminists are sending death threats to trans people?

Can you link some up please. This is a very serious accusation.

I don’t know who is sending death threats as they all hide by fake names on Twitter etc but I have seen screen shots by trans women my feelings are it’s prob gender critical men because many of the right do tag along with your side