How much longer is this going to take?!

[TimeForNowt]

Mermaids employing fetishists

Cass report

PMQ

News article after news article

The list goes on.

And yet I have a 9yo daughter - autistic, gender nonconforming, the exact audience for this genderist pile of shite, and I'm not convinced anything substantial will have changed when she's in secondary school or even college.

Where girls are still wearing binders, and trying and failing to opt out of sexism with a name change and trans flag lanyards.

How long are we going to have to wait? Labour will be in power in the next couple of years. How will I keep my perfectly healthy and whole daughter safe from this gender dogma?

I'm tired of waiting.

"Consequences of treatment" (ie infertility) could only be viewed as acceptable in the case of the trans youngster if we buy into the idea that without it they will kill themselves without it.
And do the young people making the choices have a real understanding of what they are giving up? I don't think so, given the lies told about them actually becoming the opposite sex.

’trans youngster’ I would agree in the vast majority of cases. There is a point during later adolescence when identity formation becomes more stable and cross sex hormones can be considered. It’s a clinical decision. Lots of factors.

I don’t think people are told they are ‘actually becoming the opposite sex’, not in nhs gender identity clinics. A realistic view of what can be changed. Living as much as possible as that sex (or gender) day to day. A process to alleviate distress for which there’s no other evidence base treatment.

With regards to suicide risk I’m sure you’re aware that the rate of suicidal behaviour and completed suicide for trans people is considerably higher than baseline population. (Similar to other severe mental illness perhaps but high nonetheless).

To be honest, FieldofGreyCorn, I agree with you on most of that. What's unclear is whether the suicide rate diminishes or increases after transition in the newer cohorts.

Suicide rates in autistic and otherwise neurodiverse youngsters are higher than average, and I think it's well established that there is a high overlap.

I don’t think people are told they are ‘actually becoming the opposite sex’, not in nhs gender identity clinics.

Is it worth reading around the subject before you make these sweeping statements at all?

Try the 'break it down for me' thread available for anyone who isn't up to speed on the whole shabboodle.

Stone started to received puberty blockers at 10 and took them for around five years before taking Estrogen.

Stone is male. You seem to be very focused on males and making sure they are centred in your feminism. But, you will find the overwhelming number of posters on this board will centre females in their activism.

For good reason.

The health risks for females is much higher than for males to transition. Firstly, there are risks associated with puberty blockers. Or, freespirit have you missed the backtracking that has been happening for major health organisations around the world. They are saying clearly that puberty blockers are NOT reversible and can be very harmful.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/#S5title

This 2019 study showed that female transitioners who took PBs did not ever recover their bone density as they discuss in the section on puberty blockers.

However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully Bmake up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0.

There was a series done in Sweden that followed the life of transitioners. One was Leo. A female who suffered significant skeletal damage due to use of puberty blockers.

www.svtplay.se/video/33358590/uppdrag-granskning/mission-investigate-trans-children-avsnitt-1?id=jp9dBRA

Here is some information about the documentaries in case you don't want to watch.

Trusting the advice of the health service, Leo’s parents agreed to start her on puberty blockers at 11 years old. After a period of euphoria following the beginning of the treatment, Leo’s mental health deteriorated, and she became suicidal. In spite of sharing their growing doubts, anxiety, and distress with the healthcare providers, Leo’s parents were continually told that things would get better. Leo and her parents were instead praised and reinforced for being “brave.”

The exposé follows Leo’s heartbreaking degradation. Her back begins to hurt constantly, but there is no follow-up from the health service, and treatment with puberty blockers continues. Finally, tests and images confirm the worst fears.
Sweden’s head of pediatric endocrinology (who had no involvement in Leo’s treatment) reviewed her test results and concluded that she had spinal fractures and two malformed vertebrae – highly likely as a result of the puberty blockers that were nonetheless continued for three more months after the damage was diagnosed.

Puberty blockers stop the body’s growth and bone mineralization, but these risks were never adequately described to the parents. Leo’s mother calls it “a healthy skeleton that was destroyed” by experimental medicine. (For more information on puberty blockers and their side effects, please refer to Stats for Gender, Sweden’s evidence review, and the UK National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) systematic evidence review.)

From: genspect.org/swedish-documentary-stopping-the-trans-train/

Then there is this from the FDA July 1, 2022:

publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/20636/Risk-of-pseudotumor-cerebri-added-to-labeling-for?autologincheck=redirected

The link requires a log in but the FDA identified six cases that supported a plausible association between GnRH agonist use and pseudotumor cerebri. All subjects were females aged between 5 and 12 years. Five were undergoing treatment for central precocious puberty and one for ‘transgender care’. The onset of pseudotumor cerebri symptoms ranged from just three to 240 days after the start of their GnRH agonist treatment.

So, wonderful to hear that you are so up to date with Stone's transition. However, you seem to be missing something. And that is the bulk of the current transitioning youth cohort is female. Not male. And females have a much greater degree of risk to the drugs used for transitioning.

If you are at all interested, just Google Lupron and class action lawsuit.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

and

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

and

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25 year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26 year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

This is just a sample.

This is just puberty blockers and not even testosterone.

For anyone interested in the long term health effects on the female body for using testosterone, look up the East German female athletes and the stories of the detransitioners.

Some of these detransitioners only took Testosterone for a short time and have not only the effects they desired which are not reversible (whereas more of the effects on males from taking oestrogen are!) such as facial hair and voice changes, there is the baldness, there are bladder issues and sexual performance issues.

Most importantly there are the long term effects of atrophy to ovaries and vaginas etc. And the still being researched potential of early onset dementia the earlier you have a hysterectomy.

And then there is the side effects long term of pain and lack of movement after those double mastectomies.

Plus the very poor outcome rate for phalloplasty surgery.

All this, and we also hear too many stories (even from transitioners) that there is intense pressure on these females to not publicly discuss their health issues. That to do so causes distress to others. Some transitioned females have reported being ostracised for merely asking if others have had issues.

So, how wonderful that you know all about Stone there freespirit, have you ever read about just how much more risky transitioning is to the female body? And did you ever wonder what feminists were actually discussing when they were raising alarms about just how much more risky these transitions are and the growth of detransitioners?

Or have you ignored the discussion for some reason?

Just for clarity for those who don't know. These Neo-vaginas are either created from penises turned inwards and tied in place in an artificial cavity created in the the male's body. Or they might be made from pieces of bowel or intestine. And reportedly retain the smell of that body part. Or another part of the body if those are not available.

Males who have had puberty blockers from such an early age have famously (because at least two mothers of different males have announced this at different times to the world) underdeveloped penises and not able to create a vagina of much length. Again, Bowers a surgeon who does these surgeries also confirmed this.

Another issue they have is hair growth inside that created approximation of a female body part.

Of course, there is no natural lubrication. And lubrication needs to be done very regularly. And artificially dilated for a long time to keep this site 'open'.

I am very keen to see from Freespirit how an orgasm happens in this artificially created site works.

For those interested who are reading the links, here is another. Just released.

acpuk.org.uk/the-cass-review-and-its-implications-psychologically-informed-considerations-for-the-future/

This is in response to the interim Cass review. So, the Association of Clinical Psychologists UK has already acted in light of the interim report that I posted a link for a page ago.

What's unclear is whether the suicide rate diminishes or increases after transition in the newer cohorts.

Yes I agree. Or stays the same. And to what extent transition is a satisfactory treatment in itself or whether even with that if additional support is required.

This is where GICs, the NHS/ government have been really inadequate in not doing rigorous follow up and good collection of long term data.

Just in case readers cannot find content about the Dutch Protocol:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238

But there is also commentary from the authors of the Protocol about the lack of effectiveness in the current female cohort found on google too.

This is where GICs, the NHS/ government have been really inadequate in not doing rigorous follow up and good collection of long term data.

Absolutely.

This article might be interesting for those not familiar with the Branstrom study that erroneously concluded that there was a strong improvement in mental health after transition.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

This paper from the UK also discusses suicide rates

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

Preliminary data from a small ‘before and after’ pilot study of the use of puberty blockers at the Tavistock Centre in selected children found a reduction in body image problems in adolescents following a year of puberty suppression. However, positive effects were offset by increases in self-harm and suicidal thoughts.

I think, if I remember correctly, Marcus Evans is one of the clinicians that has maintained that even if some improvement is initially recorded, that other issues then can maintain that risk due to surgery results, the disappointment in the hormonal results and the realisation that transitioning was not actually 'the fix' for the issues that transitioners wanted improvement with.

Yes, these patients have some very poor mental health, however the rates don't seem to be higher for suicide or self harm than other groups.

You say inadequate, I think that if there was high long term success, they'd have collected that data. It isn't a coincidence that the data needed wasn't collected. It is because they know damn well it doesn't exist.

This discussion made me wonder if there’s evidence that the widespread administration of trans treatments in recent years has prevented any suicides.

So I looked it up. After a steady year on year decline from 1980-2017, suicides among young people in the UK began rising in 2018 and are now at the highest level they’ve been at for 30 years.

Obviously the pandemic must be a big contributor to that but note the rise began in 2018. This trend is definitely not preventing suicides. Perhaps the opposite.

I have brought this up before too. Puberty blockers have in no way solved an epidemic of suicide among gender confused children and adolescents. In any country.

I have never known a child or adolescent present to the emergency department or acute mental health service with the primary reason for their presentation being distress about puberty.

In any country.

Oh amazing that you’ve looked into it! This really should be talked about more. Especially when data from other countries also shows there’s no downward trend in youth suicides. Suicides are clearly not being prevented.

Do you know if the uptick in suicides subsequent to the trans trend becoming widespread also happened in other countries? Though of course, there could be a lot of possible reasons for that. I’d like to know if it can be sex disaggregated - if this upward trend in suicides is worse in girls than boys, I’d be very suspicious that this trend is playing a part.

I'm just an old fashioned type of woman but I was sure that it is my amazing clitoris that allows me to have orgasms no need to involve the vagina (though mine is real).

What?

It is entirely possible to get a more than satisfactory orgasm from clitoral stimulation alone. That's how many women masturbate - not all, of course, and some use vibrators, which can produce sensations in both the clitoris and the vagina.