How much longer is this going to take?!

[TimeForNowt]

Mermaids employing fetishists

Cass report

PMQ

News article after news article

The list goes on.

And yet I have a 9yo daughter - autistic, gender nonconforming, the exact audience for this genderist pile of shite, and I'm not convinced anything substantial will have changed when she's in secondary school or even college.

Where girls are still wearing binders, and trying and failing to opt out of sexism with a name change and trans flag lanyards.

How long are we going to have to wait? Labour will be in power in the next couple of years. How will I keep my perfectly healthy and whole daughter safe from this gender dogma?

I'm tired of waiting.

And yet science ie the nhs and other people know that gender dysphoria is real and being trans is what helps many to live great lives

Sorry but it is as stop being so hyperbolic many kids will get counselling and nothing will happen to them that’s it many won’t but let’s look at the figures only a very small number will detransitiin but yet you guys never look at programs like the dream life of Georgia stone on Netflix that showed she was trans as a child and now as an adult living her happy life but nope you always focus on the bad stuff

How is someone trans as a child? How do doctors differentiate between those 10 year olds who think and say they’re trans and will be so as adults and those who think and say they’re trans and will regret their treatment?

Georgie Stone will never have any form of sexual functioning and never father a child. Georgie may appear happy as an adult, but Georgie doesn’t know and now can never know what Georgie is physically missing.

Gender dysphoria is real but rare. Its best treatment is by counselling rather than using hormones (which are for life and increase the risk e.g. of cancer), surgery which removes healthy tissues and also makes the recipient of surgery both sterile (removal of male genitalia results in this certainly and sexual function and the ability to breast feed are removed for women) and sexual function and feeling. People with gender dysphoria deserve better than to be treated in this way. The ideas of being 'born in the wrong body' and of 'sex being assigned at birth' are both nonsensical. Sex is determined very early during pregnancy and invests the whole body and its structure and function. Sex is identified at birth by external genitalia and is only assigned in the rare cases (0.02%) of intersex babies (and being intersex has nothing to do with gender dysphoria or being trans). Saying that a psychological condition has a physical reality e.g. born in the wrong body, is not a scientific fact at all.

Omfg you are off your head yes she will have sexual functioning you do know they can have orgasms with their vaginas don’t you? She can adopt if that’s what she wants that’s not the be all of life sorry it’s not they do counselling with chikdren it’s called psychotherapy Google it you need to talk to trans people as you are very misinformed and I think Georgia would have been very unhappy not being trans but hey ho we ain’t all bigots

You don’t know any trans people do you in fact reading these comments show me many don’t I do and I know they are happier now so pls don’t try and tell me this rubbish

Georgia wishes she had been born a girl and being trans is her and she knows that but I can see she’s happier now after having to fight folks like you

QUITE RIGHT FREESPIRIT SOME OF US INDENTIFY AS NONBIGOTARY

Do calm down, Freespirit.

Gender dysphoria exists. Nobody changes sex. Sometimes sex matters more than gender.

I have trans family, to whom I am kind and loving as before, while quietly doubting an extreme decision taken at a young age at a time of grief and stress.

Which parts of that would you now like to swear about?

No male who has been puberty blocked at the earliest stage, Tanner Stage 2, and then had oestrogen, can orgasm. This is even before a “vagina” is made (it’s not a vagina). Surgery does nothing to rectify this absence.

Dr Marci Bowers has stated this clearly. All early puberty blocked males are anorgasmic. Your lack of knowledge of biology is concerning.

Whether these males want children or not, the possibility of having their own children has been taken from them by the doctors who commenced puberty blockers at such a young age and the parents who agreed to it. It wasn’t their choice, because no child that age can consent to such decisions.

Typo correction. Meant to say: - hormones (which are for life and increase the risk e.g. of cancer), surgery which removes healthy tissues and also makes the recipient of surgery both sterile (removal of male genitalia results in this certainly and sexual function and the ability to breastfeed are removed for women) and remove sexual function and feeling. (Got lost in long sentence!)

So if it were the case that children put on puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones and then having genital reassignment meant they couldn't have sexual functioning, you think that would be bad?

If you could respond without sounding like Vicky Pollard that would be great. Take a breath and use your brain cells to think it through.

I think Georgia would have been very unhappy not being trans

That may well be true. In some cases, the dysphoria warrants an extreme reaction and transition is the best (or least-worst) option for that person. But there are reviews and case studies saying that it's hard to predict which transitioners will be happier and which will be worse off. Some people are suffering the definite harms of losing sexual function, body parts and general health, and not even benefiting from it mentally.

@CuriousEats

They are pushing it in primary now in Scotland as some others are saying. My daughter was being groomed by her school friends from about age 10.

What's horrible about this was they all seemed like nice ordinary girls. I had no idea they were pushing that children could be born in the wrong bodies. They had been watching influencers on YouTube like Jeffrey Marsh and there had been an influx of pink and blue flags, stickers, pin badges appearing.

They were comparing flags as to which was the prettiest and then deciding their gender based off that.

I noticed that the autistic daughters of friends all started cutting their hair - these little girls that had previously been obsessed with dressing as Elsa from Frozen were suddenly now pansexual trans boys. Their mothers would announce on social media, brimming with pride, their children were pansexual. That their children were now the opposite sex. And wow - the praise they got!

"What a supportive mum you are!"
"Love is love!"
"Blessed!"
"Stand up to the hate!"

And then the mums were suddenly at Pride with their autistic kids. Talking about oppression. Rainbow victims.

Talk to your children honestly and frankly now. It's too late by the time they start high school.

Was going to say - that the age they are pushing it younger and younger - so friends have told me their daughters are getting asked their magical gender age 5 and 6 in primary - and that all the games like Roblox have very active LGBTQ recruiting groups. Roblox is age 6+

www.theguardian.com/games/2021/apr/24/in-the-game-i-knew-myself-as-hannah-the-trans-gamers-finding-freedom-on-roblox

It's interesting to me that there has been a recent increase in TRAs reverse-ferreting and saying that TWAW doesn't mean what you think it does

Example here. twitter.com/TheAnarkitty/status/1582527151823532032?s=20&t=4SidFtEW3VgvAgEkmbQJbQ

None of the big names yet but I live in hope. I can work with this.

I suspect Freespirit's definition of sexual functioning is being in possession of a penetrable hole, not being able to orgasm and enjoying sex.

None of the big names yet but I live in hope. I can work with this.

The marginally older assertion that female still refers to sex, whereas woman refers to gender?

It’s a no from me. The word women has a specific meaning, is in much more common use than female and should not be surrendered to the demands of men.

Women is widely used in laws that protect us. Change the meaning and you remove women’s rights and protections. There’s a reason for the absolutist insistence that these men are women. If they are “a type of woman” as they claim, then all spaces that are women’s spaces and all sports that are women’s sports must admit them by default, and any attempt to exclude is mere prejudice against that “type of woman”.

There are no logical arguments that some men should be admitted to women’s spaces. Their entire argument hangs on changing the definition as that is easier than changing all the laws and wording. Don’t give it away.

Point absolutely taken Prion, and no disagreement from me at all.

But for me the shift from magical thinking (men who feel like they are women actually, physically become women, and all the drugs and surgery is just a way to speed up.and streamline physical reality) to evidence-based facts (men who feel like they are women are still biologically men) seems an important step.

Yes, I can see that too. When TWAW was first being bandied about (long before I discovered Mumsnet) I think many of us assumed it was accepted that everyone knew really that these were not women, but that this was a polite fiction and mantra, rather than an attempted assertion of fact. Then the insistence started that these men actually were women, which is when the veneer was removed and the real intention became visible, assuming you wanted to see it.

Gender non conforming behaviour and people presenting as the opposite sex are phenomena found in most human societies. It’s a spectrum of behaviours and identities. It’s cross cultural and throughout time. It’s as much a part of human behaviour as sexuality.

Almost every country in the world has transgender and transsexual people. Even primitive cultures. Surgeries and hormones is a modern iteration. Yes it’s gone too far in transitioning some children and particularly young females in the US. Pendulums often swing too far each way before reaching equilibrium.

I don’t think it’s going away. Not unless you had some sort of incredibly brutal right wing or totalitarian or oppressive government in place. I guess the closest in the west was Trump and the bathroom bill and that didn’t last long.

Hopefully we’ll find a sensible level way of doing things in this country, that keeps as many people safe as reasonably possible. There’s no absolute guarantee of safety for anyone and most harm does not come from trans people. Whatever the outcome it’s not going to please everyone.

Hopefully we’ll find a sensible level way of doing things in this country, that keeps as many people safe as reasonably possible. There’s no absolute guarantee of safety for anyone and most harm does not come from trans people. Whatever the outcome it’s not going to please everyone

well a good starting point to keep as many people (and I reckon 50% of people) as safe as possible would be

single sex hospital wards
single sex refuges
single sex prisons
single sex changing rooms
single sex toilets
Etc

there’s a pattern here, don’t you think?

Gender non conforming behaviour and people presenting as the opposite sex are phenomena found in most human societies. It’s a spectrum of behaviours and identities. It’s cross cultural and throughout time. It’s as much a part of human behaviour as sexuality.

Yes indeed. So why are they trying to edit it out by sending these people down pathways that result in them being castrated/sterilised? That isn't the progressive society that genderists say it is.

And this is the problem. What screening is there to know that medicalisation / surgery is the best option for a child? At the moment it's unethical. I hope this is the right thing for Georgie Stone, but life is long and it seems far more common sense to have this path open only for mature adults.

Doubtful about how good a fake vagina and ladybits are going to feel btw! Women have enough trouble with the real stuff.

I think many of us assumed it was accepted that everyone knew really that these were not women, but that this was a polite fiction and mantra

Well, we know that. We know that a transwoman means a male who pictures himself as a woman, whether that's from the deepest dysphoria and anguish, or as a fun thing to do on Tuesdays.

But a child taught from the earliest age that woman, girl, boy, man mean inner feeling will not know that.