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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How much longer is this going to take?!

143 replies

TimeForNowt · 15/10/2022 12:03

Mermaids employing fetishists

Cass report

PMQ

News article after news article

The list goes on.

And yet I have a 9yo daughter - autistic, gender nonconforming, the exact audience for this genderist pile of shite, and I'm not convinced anything substantial will have changed when she's in secondary school or even college.

Where girls are still wearing binders, and trying and failing to opt out of sexism with a name change and trans flag lanyards.

How long are we going to have to wait? Labour will be in power in the next couple of years. How will I keep my perfectly healthy and whole daughter safe from this gender dogma?

I'm tired of waiting.

OP posts:
Fieldofgreycorn · 19/10/2022 09:28

Etc

there’s a pattern here, don’t you think?

Some people need to change physical aspects of sex to function better, to survive. Male to female or female to male. They will live as closely as possible to that sex or ‘as if’ they have changed sex. There will always be people who live as the other sex.

lifeinthelastlane · 19/10/2022 09:40

Imagine going to the doctor around 10 and saying you were so adamant you did not want babies that you'd like to be sterilised please, so you could live without fears about getting pregnant.
What doctor would agree to that? Who would say "well she can always adopt"?

AlisonDonut · 19/10/2022 09:45

Fieldofgreycorn · 19/10/2022 09:28

Etc

there’s a pattern here, don’t you think?

Some people need to change physical aspects of sex to function better, to survive. Male to female or female to male. They will live as closely as possible to that sex or ‘as if’ they have changed sex. There will always be people who live as the other sex.

If people feel that they have issues then mental health treatment is what is needed.

The whole concept of changing sex has already been proven wrong when the original botched experimentation on kids went disasterously wrong.

People who have had 'sex reassignment surgery' who get dementia wake up every day in distress when they see that their genitals have been removed.

This isn't some progression. Castrating people because they have mental health distress should be in the history books. Not in primary schools.

DameMaud · 19/10/2022 09:50

Birdsweepsin · 19/10/2022 07:57

Point absolutely taken Prion, and no disagreement from me at all.

But for me the shift from magical thinking (men who feel like they are women actually, physically become women, and all the drugs and surgery is just a way to speed up.and streamline physical reality) to evidence-based facts (men who feel like they are women are still biologically men) seems an important step.

Someone on another thread (just searched- can't find it!), wrote a comment- a vision of the future- that links to what you have pointed out here bird.
The commenter imagined that in the future, those on the GI side of the debate will have to pull back closer to the GC view- and that when things do change for the better, all the feminist work to get there will be forgotten and the narrative will be that it was the TRA's that got us there.
It was so much more articulate than what I have just written!
Tried advanced search- I replied so I could come back to it, but can only find my threads and not my replies.
I likened it to Batman The Dark Knight- where he is willing to be seen as the villain as what's needed is greater than himself.
Maybe someone can help me find it with that info!

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 09:50

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 08:56

Wow what a lot of rubbish and I suggest you actually speak to trans people and let’s hope your kids are not trans in fact let’s hope mqny kids of you guys are not because they sure as hell won’t be talking to you guys as adults

In the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men, it isn't possible actually to speak to any trans people. Why? Because
in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men there aren't any trans people. That is, there are no men who change into women or women who change into men. And you can't talk to people who don't exist, not really. Can you?

I know that's (weirdly) difficult for some people to understand, but do try.

I'm sorry not to have responded sooner, but I have been away with (and talking to) one of my adult children. Your 'hope' is fulfilled of necessity, by the way: none of my (or anybody else's) kids could be trans in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men just because there are no such men or women. Phew! Lucky, that, huh?

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 09:53

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 09:16

You don’t know any trans people do you in fact reading these comments show me many don’t I do and I know they are happier now so pls don’t try and tell me this rubbish

Actually, in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men, none of us (including you, Freespirit42) knows any trans people, since there are no men who change into women or women who change into men. Nor have there ever been any such people, so no-one (including Freespirit42) has ever known any trans people in this sense.

To others than Freespirit:
This person makes her intellectual capacities clear in her posts. Given this, we might be inclined to pass on by; why engage with such a level of discourse? (Why bother trying to play chess with such a pigeon?) However, she has a vote, as well as a voice. We need such people's votes. And, well, clearly reason is not going to work here. So, what? Any ideas?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2022 09:57

Mermaids have done a fantastic service by taking the LGB Alliance to court.

I imagine that there will be further publicity when the case resumes in a couple of weeks given the prominence of Mermaids in the news media recently.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2022 10:04

Some people need to change physical aspects of sex to function better, to survive.

We don't know this, because no one's going to be looking for a medical cure for this psychological disorder.

Fieldofgreycorn · 19/10/2022 11:06

What doctor would agree to that? Who would say "well she can always adopt"?

None. That’s not a comparable analogy anyway.

But there isn’t good evidence for using puberty blockers as usual treatment for gender identity issues in children. Puberty is often a key factor in desistance, so stopping puberty also stops the process that likely will resolve the gender issues.

It’s not a 100% absolute though. There will always be a need for clinical discretion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2022 11:10

What doctor would agree to that? Who would say "well she can always adopt"?

None. That’s not a comparable analogy anyway.

Yes it is.

Fieldofgreycorn · 19/10/2022 12:29

Yes it is.

It’s not. You know very well even using common sense that’s not how medical decisions are made. Treatment that may be appropriate in one situation may not be in another. Consequences of treatment may be acceptable in some situations and not in others depending on risks and severity.

These false analogies used by people on the ‘GC side’ lose a lot of credibility. Same as ‘if they wanted to be a duck would you sew on a beak?’ And ‘if they were anorexic would you affirm their need to lose weight’.

Different conditions. Different treatments. Different causes.

AlisonDonut · 19/10/2022 12:38

Consequences of treatment may be acceptable in some situations and not in others depending on risks and severity

How in anyone's world is it OK to perform double breast mastectomies on teens, and to give them the same drugs as used to castrate paedophiles?

Some treatments should never happen. Experimentation on kids to satisfy an ideology is one.

Freespirit42 · 19/10/2022 13:11

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 09:50

In the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men, it isn't possible actually to speak to any trans people. Why? Because
in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men there aren't any trans people. That is, there are no men who change into women or women who change into men. And you can't talk to people who don't exist, not really. Can you?

I know that's (weirdly) difficult for some people to understand, but do try.

I'm sorry not to have responded sooner, but I have been away with (and talking to) one of my adult children. Your 'hope' is fulfilled of necessity, by the way: none of my (or anybody else's) kids could be trans in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men just because there are no such men or women. Phew! Lucky, that, huh?

Sorry to disappoint you but yeah there are many trans people maybe not in your word salad world but in the real world otherwise gender clinics wouldn’t exist etc

Freespirit42 · 19/10/2022 13:18

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 09:53

Actually, in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men, none of us (including you, Freespirit42) knows any trans people, since there are no men who change into women or women who change into men. Nor have there ever been any such people, so no-one (including Freespirit42) has ever known any trans people in this sense.

To others than Freespirit:
This person makes her intellectual capacities clear in her posts. Given this, we might be inclined to pass on by; why engage with such a level of discourse? (Why bother trying to play chess with such a pigeon?) However, she has a vote, as well as a voice. We need such people's votes. And, well, clearly reason is not going to work here. So, what? Any ideas?

That will be the cult at work yes why bother engaging with other peoples opinions. Particularly when you guys can claim that being trans doesn’t exist yet medical professionals will tell you otherwise. To me a lot of your voices sound like a religion that don’t want to hear other views.

lifeinthelastlane · 19/10/2022 13:21

Fieldofgreycorn · 19/10/2022 12:29

Yes it is.

It’s not. You know very well even using common sense that’s not how medical decisions are made. Treatment that may be appropriate in one situation may not be in another. Consequences of treatment may be acceptable in some situations and not in others depending on risks and severity.

These false analogies used by people on the ‘GC side’ lose a lot of credibility. Same as ‘if they wanted to be a duck would you sew on a beak?’ And ‘if they were anorexic would you affirm their need to lose weight’.

Different conditions. Different treatments. Different causes.

"Consequences of treatment" (ie infertility) could only be viewed as acceptable in the case of the trans youngster if we buy into the idea that without it they will kill themselves without it.
And do the young people making the choices have a real understanding of what they are giving up? I don't think so, given the lies told about them actually becoming the opposite sex.

lifeinthelastlane · 19/10/2022 13:22

To me a lot of your voices sound like a religion that don’t want to hear other views
Grin Grin

AlisonDonut · 19/10/2022 13:23

If people who were gender critical stood up and said 'lets sterilise all trans people so they cannot procreate' we'd be rightly called transphobic and cancelled. And the irony of this story is...

RealFeminist · 19/10/2022 13:33

ARE WE IN A CULT? OMG HOW DO I GET OOT?

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 14:15

Freespirit42 · 19/10/2022 13:11

Sorry to disappoint you but yeah there are many trans people maybe not in your word salad world but in the real world otherwise gender clinics wouldn’t exist etc

Well, I wonder. All these trans people in the real world. They can't be trans in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men can they? - Because there are no men who change into women or women who change into men, nor have there ever been. (Or do you disagree?)

... So these trans people in the real world must be trans in some other sense. (As I think I may have pointed out in an earlier post.) That's OK; that's what gender clinics etc. are for, hmm?

Btw, having demonstrated your own semi-literacy in several posts, it really ill behoves you then to castigate something you fail to understand as 'word salad'. Cuts no ice, we might say.

(On the other hand, 'cult', I like, and would enjoy even more were you aware of the irony.)

Keep trying!

liwoxac · 19/10/2022 14:19

Freespirit42 · 19/10/2022 13:18

That will be the cult at work yes why bother engaging with other peoples opinions. Particularly when you guys can claim that being trans doesn’t exist yet medical professionals will tell you otherwise. To me a lot of your voices sound like a religion that don’t want to hear other views.

I think we might mean different things by 'engaging with other peoples [sic] opinions'. For me, engaging with other people's opinions involves reasoned scrutiny of their reasons for holding the opinions they do. For you, it seems to mean abusing people for the opinions they hold while misconstruing what they say.

Do you agree with this characterisation? Or do you think you are engaging in reasoned discussions of others' opinions on this thread?

Lesserspottedmama · 19/10/2022 14:25

This is one of the reasons why I home educate, schools are largely indoctrination camps now.

Helleofabore · 19/10/2022 15:06

Omfg you are off your head yes she will have sexual functioning you do know they can have orgasms with their vaginas don’t you?

I beg your pardon? Am I correct in thinking you have just said that males who have 'Neo-vaginas' will 'orgasm' in that neo-vagina?

Who told you that? And tell us, what muscle and muscle control has a Neo-vagina have?

And I am going to call your bluff on this and ask for a link to evidence from a study or a paper from a gender clinician.

Please stop spreading such false and very harmful information.

Someone else posted what Marci Bowers said, here is Marci Bowers saying it.

twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1521692875242688512?s=20&t=6K0xby7vIr--oBII-gJRIw

By the way, Bowers is a transitioned male gender clinician who was President Elect of the WPATH and turns male penises into neo-vaginas! We are not making this shit up. OR are you going to try and tell us that Bowers is not an expert?

She can adopt if that’s what she wants that’s not the be all of life sorry it’s not they do counselling with chikdren it’s called psychotherapy Google it you need to talk to trans people as you are very misinformed

Goodness. You really are very prejudiced about the people who post on this board. I believe I pointed out before that many people on this board have trans people in their everyday lives. And quite a few have children who are identified as trans in their lives, one way or another.

It is you giving false information in your posts. You have been caught out more than once.

YOU need to talk to parents of children who are trans and detransitioners and listen to just how much 'psychotherapy' they are getting. I am very happy to start posting the papers that are describing how inadequate the amount of therapy these young people are getting, PLUS how difficult it is to now provide even recommendations due to the children and young people being coached by others in just what to say to 'get the treatment'. It has been written about by clinicians. In fact, since you keep mentioning Georgie Stone, who is Australian, several Australian clinicians have written about it.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

I am happy to link up more. There is plenty of information to read linked in the Break it Down thread.

It seems it is YOU who is 'very misinformed'.

Even the authors of the famed 'Dutch Protocol' treatment have stated that these young patients today are NOT getting the recommended mental health treatment.

Do you only take your information from biased sources?

I am actually laughing at your constant stream of prejudiced posts that attempt to portray yourself as having some kind of inside knowledge on trans people, yet you do not seem to have a grasp on the current facts being discussed on these threads at all.

Helleofabore · 19/10/2022 15:40

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 09:05

Sorry but it is as stop being so hyperbolic many kids will get counselling and nothing will happen to them that’s it many won’t but let’s look at the figures only a very small number will detransitiin but yet you guys never look at programs like the dream life of Georgia stone on Netflix that showed she was trans as a child and now as an adult living her happy life but nope you always focus on the bad stuff

I think my last post covered the 'hyperbolic' 'sterilisation' aspect. But you are right, I just did the males. I am happy to find the Scandanavian fertility doctor who is now raising the alarm about the number of females who are coming to the clinic after detransitioning to work out why they cannot conceive. Seems no one told them that taking testosterone may do that.

Or anyone who knows as many trans people as you declare you know would also understand how female reproductive organs tend to atrophy with testosterone treatment. I mean, that is quite well documented. I am surprised you don't know about it.

And only a small number will detransition?

Do you have any numbers for this? Any at all? Because the NHS was unable to produce anything. Just saying 'only a "very" small number will detransition is actually saying, I am going to repeat trope from groups heavily invested in making sure that detransitioners are never counted.

How weird you have also been very vocal on a thread discussing 'accountability'! Surely any group wanting the very best standard of care for patients in such distress would want to be able to have full accountability that the treatments are working?

How many detransitioners are an acceptable level of 'collateral' to ensure others get the treatment they want?

Here we go, this one from one GP surgery who decided to do it's own audit in 2020 on the quality of care that their patients were receiving :

www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

-the rate of detransition amongst those who had received at least hormones was 9.8%

-the number of patients with underlying mental health issues. And how they are being completely let down by affirming only treatment.

-The number of visits before receiving hormones was 2.7 appointments.

-67 patients average age 27.8 years -range was 12- 54
-42 females, 22 males, four NB (3 f / 1 m)
-Female mean age is 18 years, male 23 years.
-Out of the 67, only 9 (13%) had NO mental health diagnosis. 10 (15%) had diagnosed ASD, 4 with ADHD (6%), 3 (4%) with OCD, 1 with Bipolar, 7 (10%) with a Personality Disorder. 13 (19%) had documented childhood abuse, neglect or violence.

2.7 appointments? Is this considered to be the very best that we can do?

However, that 9.8% rate actually reflects the rates from this study. And this study was not about detransitioning and is actually about measuring success. So again, not a 'biased' study but one that inadvertantly has some numbers that seem to have not been mentioned by anyone that I can see.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Both of this studies will not reflect the 'bulge' of patients who have been mostly young female patients who have registered at gender clinics from around 2016.
In the UK and around the world. Those patients have not yet been included in any studies that have not been biased.

If we take the newer figure of 9.8% from that southern England GP audit, are you perfectly happy that 1 in every 10 transitioner will experience regret? What about if the numbers are much higher now as many of us who have read as many of the reports, papers and studies that we can find suspect?

That expectation is due to the fact that so many female transitioners have been poorly supported by the health services that were using treatments that were developed for young MALES and neglecting co-morbities.

And I do encourage you to use Google as you say to read about what even the authors of the Dutch Protocol say.

Helleofabore · 19/10/2022 15:52

Freespirit42 · 18/10/2022 08:56

Wow what a lot of rubbish and I suggest you actually speak to trans people and let’s hope your kids are not trans in fact let’s hope mqny kids of you guys are not because they sure as hell won’t be talking to you guys as adults

I suggest that instead of telling posters on this board all about just how much you seem to know about trans people and children, you might take some time to read the interim Cass report.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

I think that some people who post on this board are very familiar with young people who are trans. You seem to not understand that this is a site called 'Mumsnet' and you are on the board created to discuss 'Sex and Gender'. And that many regular posters here have read deeply about these issue because we have children and teenagers who are impacted the medicalisation of children and young people and by the developments around 'gender' being prioritised above sex where sex matters. ( You know.... you keep saying 'you lot, or is it you guys, need to get to know trans people? Well, guess what? WE DO! and some very well indeed! )

But do crack on. Because as we are very used to posters who have taken the approach that you have we have learned that only way to fight the misinformation being posted and the emotional manipulation attempts with links to facts, studies and papers and let readers make up their own minds.

In essence, your posts create threads that become much more informative to readers and we make it easy for them to 'educate' themselves as you seem to have told people to do.

So, thank you.

Helleofabore · 19/10/2022 15:52

Omfg you are off your head

indeed.

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