I'm not a woman - which facilities should I use

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Genuinely interested to hear what supporters of gender ideology would recommend here. I am biologically female but do not identify as a woman. I am officially trans though in reality I don't think I am the sort of person Stonewall meant to refer to in their definition of trans (I am gender critical - which for those who have been misled by some made-up definitions, to me means that sometimes sex, rather than gender, matters. It is not an anti-trans stance).

The question is - which facilities should I use? I should not be in the ladies if that is defined by identity but using the men's does not feel right either. How do gender ideologists suggest I negotiate this?

For goodness sake! You are a woman, use the ladies. It’s really not that hard.

I think the OP is deliberately trying to get a rise out of us, most of us don’t care, identify as a unicorn for all I care, but if you were born a woman then use the ladies !

Or go to your nearest Wagamamas, they don’t give a shit about giving women their own safe space. Ffs 🤦‍♀️

My Gosh OP have a day off 🙈😂 Just be you. Yourself. Stop creating enormous wordy salads and naval gazing and overthinking. Just do you. It always makes me laugh how all this gender/NB/trans/neutral stuff purports to hate labels and yet there are more bloody labels than an Asda pricing scanner being slapped about! So much of this thoroughly modern saga reminds me of when Eddie (Ab Fab) would do things for the latest fashion seeking attention, to which her mother, the wonderful June Whitfield would reply ‘that’s nice dear’.

Use the ladies toilets. You're a woman, you have a vagina.

I appreciate the OP is taking the piss or trying to get a raise from us. But honestly OP, there are girls in India being raped because of their sex, there is a full blown war going on, our economy is shit, people are worried about their bills, heating, mortgages. We are looking at strikes across the public sector….. we won’t have public toilets soon as councils won’t be able to afford to keep a non statutory service.

don’t you have other things to worry about rather than this crap.

If you're biologically female surely the womens toilets?

Genuinely interested to hear what supporters of gender ideology would recommend here.
This is not really a forum awash with gender ideologists so you may get a different perspective.

I am biologically female but do not identify as a woman. I am officially trans though in reality I don't think I am the sort of person Stonewall meant to refer to in their definition of trans (I am gender critical - which for those who have been misled by some made-up definitions, to me means that sometimes sex, rather than gender, matters. It is not an anti-trans stance).
Being trans and GC are not incompatible, many people believe some people have gender dysphoria and may wish to transition whilst also being gender critical. Debbie Halton is an example of a transwoman who believes in biological sex.

You are correct to state sex matters and this is a legally protected belief which is not anti-trans. How people manifest this belief may or may not be a anti-trans.

The question is - which facilities should I use? I should not be in the ladies if that is defined by identity but using the men's does not feel right either. How do gender ideologists suggest I negotiate this?
I am not a gender ideologist, I believe sex is binary Male and Female but I also believe people should live their best lives without artificial barriers being put in the way.

Society has developed a language which can be precise but can also be very confusing. Do you have dinner at mid day or in the evening, do you have a sofa or a settee, is it a napkin or a serviette. In each case we may use one word but we still understand when someone uses a different word.

Female words for toilet I have seen include women, ladies, damen, hens, mares, signore, Donne, femmes etc. I am not a horse but definitely knew to use the mares not stallions. To me these words are saying is this is a single sex facility for females.

Not at all. Im not confortable with the mens because I don't identify as a man. I am non binary also according to stonewall definition. I've borne two children so am legitimately biologically female. However I'd feel mis gendered if anyone assumed that because I go to the ladies I identify as a woman. I am not messing here. I genuinely now feel uncomfortable wherever I go.

This is a where subtlety of language really comes into play, would you feel miss-sexed if someone assumed you were female because you used the ladies toilet?

What you need to remember is most communication is non-verbal, if I met you I may misgender you not because you used the female toilet but because of how you presented to me e.g. clothes, hairstyle. If I met you and you asked me to use they/them pro nouns I would, if you then said I’m going to the loo and walked into the women’s I wouldn’t think twice about it.

I'm agender not trans male

This is how I meant it though as well as a thought experiment I do not ever want people to feel justified in assuming that I align myself with sexist stereotypes just because of the facilities I use.

As a thought experiment, do you assume people who use the mens toilets are rapists, sexual offenders because 98% of rapists and sexual, offenders are male? Was I racist in China because I only used the “western toilet” rather than the hole in the ground Chinese toilets?

Sorry for the I am trans confusion but according to stonewall anyone who does not have a gender identity is trans

• That is one view/definition many would disagree with.
• I don’t have a gender identity
• I believe if you asked people most would actually not understand the question and so state man or woman meaning male or female not understanding what gender ideology is.

Gender ideologies do not agree and I want to know which facilities they think I should use
If gender ideologies don’t agree then it is impossible for them to have a consensus. Which means using the toilet facilities designated for your sex is the right approach.

Also why do you care what other people think of you using the toilets appropriate for your sex?

Gender ideologistsn say they are womens toilets not females. And some tw describe themselves as biologically female. By their definition I am not a woman and may also not be female.

As I’ve said language is part of the issue. Relabelling toilets female and male makes it clear they are sex based facilities. This would remove any ambiguity.

Perople can describe themselves how they want, cat, Jedi, TW, etc. but this does not change the material reality of their biological sex.

Groups and organisations can create their own definitions and it is up to us as individuals and society to decide if we accept or reject them. It is your choice to accept or reject gender ideologies definitions, if they can agree one!

Whilst sex and sexual orientation are clearly defined in law the same cannot be said for trans, non-binary etc. To resolve this we may need more legal definitions but this is something gender ideologists don’t want, I wonder why?

Sadly gender ideologists do
I am absolutely not taking the piss. I am wanting gender ideologists to tell me where I fit in their worldview.
Gender ideologists can’t tell you where you fit in their world view because they can’t agree. Only you can decide where you fit in your world view.

To me it feels like a refusal to let my sexed body define me. What does it feel like to identify as a woman?
I haven’t a clue how to tell you what it feels like to be a woman, I just am a woman.

I am a woman and my sexed body does not define me. Yes, there are things I can’t do but very few are because I am a woman. There are things that impact me because I’m female e.g. periods, pregnancy, childbirth, PCOS, menopause etc. but they don’t define me.

To me what you are saying is you reject sexual stereotypes and that is what many women and men do but don’t feel they need to stop being a man or woman to do that.

It would have to be a “theybe” 😂

"Yes. Gender ideologists do assume alignment with stereotypes when people declare themselves a man or a woman. Gender ideology reinforces those stereotypes as does every person who does not see that being assumed to identify as a man or a woman "
Get over yourself. Don't give a shiny shit how you present. If you are born a biological male, use the men's. If you are born a biological woman, use the women's. If that is too distressing for you, use a unisex toilet. But not the disabled loo. Keep the fuck out of there unless you are disabled.
Wear a skirt, wear trousers, shave your hair, grow it long, dye it purple, wear nail varnish, be a welder, be a harpist,do what the fuck you like. I don't give a shit.
You might want to talk to a medical professional about your anxiety. It's not my job to pander to it.

Women facilities as you are a woman. It’s just a simple matter of biology not a feeling.

Using the toilet isn't about gender it's about biology. You have female biology so use the female toilet.

You talk about Gender Ideologists as though they are some higher power and you need them to dictate how ypu live your life. Think for yourself and stop deferring to these people, whoever they are.

If you have a vagina use the womens, if you have a Penis use the mens

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee I get it and I'll join you. I don't identify as a woman I just am one so those toilets the gender ideologists say are for people who identify as women are not for me. Much simpler if they just fottfsoftfosm and we go back to toilets being strictly designated by sex, natal males can keep out of ladies.

You've come into this post trying to make a point about what gender ideologists think and feel, not realising that the deliberately obfuscating language they use confuses everything.

I don't 'identify' as any gender either, so I suppose I therefore fit under the 'non-binary' umbrella. However I am unequivocally female, so I use the ladies toilets. I don't actually care what assumptions strangers make about me though tbh.

If you were trying to make a clever post, then you were never going to get the gender ideologues onside; they only hang out on this board to drop a bomb in the threads where someone has the audacity to say males are not females.

If you weren't, then I don't know what you're trying to do, tbh. You're an adult human female who has borne children. Grow up. Use the toilets you've always used as you are female.

Yes. Gender ideologists do assume alignment with stereotypes when people declare themselves a man or a woman. Gender ideology reinforces those stereotypes as does every person who does not see that being assumed to identify as a man or a woman rather than just being one is problematic.

I really don't understand this. I'm a woman because I have female biology. This has nothing to do with gender or 'gender ideology'.

Exactly, @YetAnotherSpartacus

Most people of both sexes don't "identify" as anything.

They are aware that they are one or the other.

What on earth does needing to use a toilet have to do with sexist stereotypes? I don't understand the statement.

Sorry - should have said "many are just aware"

Fuck off with that. I'm not shitting myself in a corridor because some special snowflake who thinks their "gender identity" is the most important thing about them gets hurty feelz from being in the Ladies.

(And yes, I know the point the OP is making and I agree that gender ideology is a load of illogical bollocks which would be laughable if it weren't so fucking dangerous. But as a woman with disabilities I'm sick to the back teeth of accessible toilets being held up as the answer to some people's inability to grow up, pull their head out of their arse and focus on real problems.)

Yep, you can't fight the engineering design, it's like that for a reason

Im not trying to get them onside. I genuinely want them to answer this. If women's facilities are for people who identify as women, what so other non transmen use? We can't all use the disabled facilities as there are load of us and we don't have a disability. It's quite a simple question. Why won't they answer it?

Who is 'they', OP? What do 'they' believe with respect to gender and sex? I'm not sure you are in the right place to speak with 'them' personally.

So then he would use the mens cubicles surely ?

No, Mumsnet has a pretty low bullshit threshold.

Almost as if a community of female people, most of whom have grown humans in their own bodies, has very little time for the idea that a woman is something you identify as.