Cottaging

[TimeAtTheBar]

Is very much still a thing.

My best friend is an older gay man, long term single. Several times a week he visits the ‘naughty toilets’ at several locations around our (small, conservative) town to, er, get his needs met. It’s a whole thing. There are websites and an app to arrange encounters, but you can also just go to these locations on the off chance and there’s a system/signal.

I’m very open minded but I do find it pretty shocking. Also I didn’t know opportunist cottaging was still a thing with the advent of Grindr etc.

He is obviously horrified by the creeping trend for unisex toilets. And it got me thinking that this behaviour is EXACTLY why they are a horrible idea.

Men are just SO different from women. Different motivations, different needs, different boundaries. This drive to pretend we are exactly the same and can pick and choose which one we are is fundamentally a big fat lie.

Im just posting for thoughts really. A post on another thread (the one about wtf moments) made me think of it.

I also have another friend who is happily single but uses Grindr for one off encounters several times a week and from what they both say this is standard behaviour for many gay men. It’s not just the risk of assaults in mixed spaces, it’s the behaviour of men in general, gay or straight.

There is, but there are also very effective treatments for it these days which hadn’t been developed in the 80s, so becoming HIV+ isn’t the automatic death sentence it once was.

Just to demonstrate the kind of risky sexual behaviours we’re talking about: there is a minority cohort of gay men - but enough that it is a recognised fetish - who go out of their way to expose themselves to the risk of becoming infected with the HIV virus (known as “bug chasers”) and seek out unprotected sex with “poz” men.

I actually remember making this exact same point when I was at university 20 years ago. I was quite naive so it was a bit of a revelation into men and how they were naturally more promiscuous.

I have middle-class gay friends who are in a decades long relationship, so, on the surface, conservative... Though theirs is the only one I know to be an 'open relationship' which involves picking up other men 🤷‍♀️

It's all so tacky isn't it. Men are SO different from women.

I definitely don’t want men in women’s spaces and it’s unfortunate I am going to start my comment with ‘not all men’ but it’s important to say that many men and boys don’t want to be around men’s lewd and public sexual behaviour in toilets or public places, any more than women do.

Especially men who have been sexually abused, like my DH and who suffers from PTSD and still finds certain situations difficult. Particularly when younger, he did not want to find random men being predatory or inappropriate in toilets or wondering where is safe to go for a shit (he has Crohn’s disease) without being exposed to unwanted sexual behaviour.

It’s men’s problems with men, but I was about to post about how their objections are often shut down by claims of homophobia in similar ways to women are shut down by bullshit claims of transphobia, and there is the article showing the despisable Tatchell saying exactly that.

I’m sure I watched her story online, possibly a YouTube documentary. She was so impressive in her acceptance of her own body despite the changes of the hormones/ mastectomy. The absurdity of having to apply localised female hormones to prevent vaginal dryness/ atrophy when on testosterone.

Really informative, these are the stories that should be told in schools.

I can’t even begin to get my head round the big chaser angle but the invention of ‘Prep’ ‘pre exposure prophylaxis‘ medications has likely been a key player in the resurrection of some of the riskier sexual behaviours that were curtailed by the AIDS crisis

www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/prep.html

I expect I’ve probably mentioned this before but I worked in the gay mens’ sector in the 90s (straight woman = early diversity hire! 🤣) and had a lot to do with one of the smaller HIV/AIDS charities (since merged with the Terrence Higgins Trust). This was around the time that effective treatments without horrendous side effects were becoming more and more accessible and the gay-specific HIV charities were beginning to wind down.

In hindsight I applaud those little orgs who saw that much of their work was done and didn’t keep going in a ‘well we’ve all got these jobs and pensions to worry about now’ sort of way.

I have a very live and let live attitude towards the sexual interests of gay men, it’s up to them to keep their own house on this one, but I do wish they’d stop with the public space and open air stuff (applies to people having straight sex/dogging etc too, judgemental thread watchers) but I totally agree, that lesbians often have far less in common with gay men than they do with bi and straight women and a few of my lesbian friends who have some stereotypically male interests seem to prefer the company of straight men to gay men!)

As a boring cishetwhatever who knows enough to worry about the sexual and romantic-life safety of both opposite and same sex attracted teenagers and young people, the newer worry for young gay men exploring the world, is of course, the chemsex phenomenon.

Oh, one thing I do absolutely have an issue with is the men who are out having risky sex with other men with an unknowing wife/mother of child at home. I don’t care if that makes me unfashionable or judgemental, you can’t have cake and eat it if that means taking away someone else’s right to informed consent (same goes for straight men having affairs, no homophobia here).

(obvious NAGMALT disclaimer here)

of course Not All Gay Men Are Like This, but nonetheless there are phenomena in sexual practices that are overwhelmingly seen in men attracted to other men.

Pretending it isn’t so just puts our gay & bi sons/brothers/friends at additional unnecessary risk, which seems like real homophobia to little old me.

The couple I met are Elie and Nele of Post Trans:

post-trans.com/About-Us

but there are lots of other interesting, thoughtful and insightful detrans young women (and men) sharing their stories online, many with similar stories.

Elie and Nele have produced a booklet on the detrans experience which is available to download:

post-trans.com/Detransition-Booklet

and their website is full of beautiful illustrations and moving detrans stories.

BBC news did a long profile on them a while back (I would go hunt it out but a Mumsnet glitch keeps deleting my comments if I don’t post them quickly or wander off and leave them unattended for a moment!)

Just to be clear; lesbian ideas of public sex is to get excited over dessert and furniture at IKEA.
I'm serious , we don't do cottaging, dogging, chemsex is too many cafe au laits at Starbucks.
We don't have AIDS, monkey pox, zero STDs because we don't have sex with males. ( at least pre transwomen)

Aw. My favourite neighbours are lesbians who fit that description exactly!

Most of conversations are about cats or tile choices for their newly refurbed (and beautiful!) kitchen.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51806011

Here they are.

Last time I saw the stats on this, sex practices among gay men, which underwent a change in the early AIDS era, have completely reverted to what they were.

It was an interesting phenomena at the time, because there were gay men writing about a lot of things like cottaging and asking some hard questions about whether maybe this was not actually a very healthy way to live. Not just because of AIDS but in a larger sense.

That's all pretty much disappeared now. And while there certainly are gay men not into any of that stuff, there is a significant cohort that has sexual practices that are far outside what most women realize. And tbh I am somewhat, I don't know, cynical? I guess, about the idea that it's homophobic to have an opinion about that. At a certain level I am pretty hands off about what other people do, I don't need to live my life thinking about that all the time, about anything. But I do think the fact is that the cohort that behaves that way is a huge reservoir and vector for sexual health issues that absolutely do not only stay within that community. The data shows that pretty clearly. So you have the vast majority of cases of the clap, for example, in that population - a disease which could easily become resistant to all antibiotics in the near future.

So I don't think we can totally separate that from looking at sexual health of people in general. Other gay men who don't do that stuff, wives of men who have sex with men, their babies, etc.

It seems really disingenuous to me to pretend like it only will ever effect people who choose that lifestyle.

I don’t understand how anyone can be surprised at cottaging, if you look at the current manifestation of ‘Pride’.

Graham Norton had an interesting account of how ( I’m paraphrasing) he quite misses the old days of being persecuted and outcast for his sexuality, including a bit about running down alleys pursued by outraged straights. I think a lot of straight people thought that same sex attracted people were unfairly penalised in law , not being able to be married with the rights of inheritance etc which that brings. Many people knew a ‘respectable’ couple, who lived together in a relationship like marriage, and supported the social equality that implied. For lesbians, that all turned out to be true.

Is it fair o say, for gay men, not so much ? That domestic bliss is , well, a bit boring. There seems to be an element of transgression which is very attractive; boundaries have to be pushed. I don’t think that it is so very different from straight male sexuality, in that many men would like to sleep with more than just one woman in a time frame (that’s the mammalian pattern, although some monkeys pair for life). It just has a different manifestation.

It is interesting though that your friend is fine with using a non-unisex men's toilet where boys and vulnerable men have every right to be whatever time of day it is. It's still a safeguarding issue. Didn't RTFT so if this has been said already, well I agree.

No AIDS, monkey pox, zero STDs

Just in case anyone believes this, to correct the record and protect you, all of these can be transmitted by lesbian sex. The risk is lower overall for lesbians but it is still there and will vary further depending on the STD in question. Herpes is very passable, as one example, including via oral sex, and being a lesbian won't make any difference as herpes including cold sores is very prevalent in the population. Monkeypox is passed by close contact which may not include sex at all.

What a cliched post!

You obviously haven't been to a gay bar / club in a while - the women's toilets are rife with women hooking up together! I know, I'm queuing waiting to use the cubicles they are spending time in!

Yes there are certainly women then prefer committed, long-term relationships with each other, but there is plenty of casual, no-strings attached sex going on as well.

Just to check, you think TransWomenAreWomen, right?

i

Unsure of relevance.

In fact I was at a comedy stand up gig of a very well known lesbian comedian last night - the comedian had to tell off 2 women in the front row for their public PDAs that went well beyond kissing unfortunately. A bouncer also had to speak to them. I think they thought the table was covering their activities but it really wasn't, and it was quite distracting.

Please don't stereotype gay men; gay women and straight men and women are just as capable.

The relevance is that how you define woman means that we have no way of knowing whether you are talking about the same group of people we are or not.

it makes this conversation impossible.

O, I'm very sorry for your poor conversation skills.

the issue isnt with thecloglady

I’m very sorry for your poor ideologically captured vocabulary skills.

Thoughts and Prayers 🙏

Mmm I guess.

It's the creeping demonization, othering and marginalising of yet more vulnerable groups on FWR that's the real issue, right?

I am a gay man and very much NOT TWAW and sick to the back teeth of this forced teaming when it's nothing to do with the other. I agree with absolutely loads of posts in this thread, there's been no lies told. And to an extent I agree that gay men and lesbian women have little in common but I still think there's a same-sex attraction link that combines and unites compared to the T which is just bizarre and makes zero sense to me being teamed together whatsoever.

Please don't think we are all lesbian and women haters who embrace the T. Despite the aggressive PR agenda we are pushing back. I've been a (in mostly agreement) lurker for a while so probably don't need to explain this to all of you as you've likely experienced, but it's hard to get the word out and make a stand when our own organisations are actively working against and undermining us and deleting our comments expressing outrage. It's a few years old now but:

www.datalounge.com/thread/22392276-trans-man-kicked-out-of-london-gay-sauna-for-not-having-a-penis

And I have middle aged gay friends in long term relationships who are married and monogamous. In fact it surprised me in my het days, when I never married, how much LGB people wanted to get on board with marriage.

A digression. But we can overstate the differences in men and women