Maya on Radio 2 today

[JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon]

Maya is being interviewed on the Jeremy Vine show today.

I can’t bring myself to listen to the show but

And yet here you are...

can’t bring myself to listen to the show

I think you should probably listen to it, before commenting, if you truly want to understand why people have an issue.

Particularly "Anna from Ramsgate".

There are also lots of threads here you can read, and then obviously feel free to "talk back" with your enhanced knowledge of the subject that we've been discussing here for years.

"Because all I ever see is “well men will pretend to be women to get into changing rooms and toilets” (in which case, your problem is with men, not trans women)"

Pray tell, what is the difference between men and trans women then?
And can you shed any light on how one tells the difference, if there is, indeed any at all? 🤔

in which case, your problem is with men, not trans women

It's more accurate to say our problem is with all biological males in female spaces, regardless of gender identity.

Why, though? This is what I genuinely don’t understand.

As in like, if a trans woman is in a space that you’re in, why is that in itself a problem?

Pray tell, what is the difference between men and trans women then?
And can you shed any light on how one tells the difference, if there is, indeed any at all?

Sorry, I can't upload images but someone just posted this relevant thought on another thread:
twitter.com/Nobody48376829/status/1575809786461192192

Interesting, because that sounds very similar to the “gender is a social construct! But we can’t let people self identify!” argument that I see so often here.

Absolutley, you should definitely apologise for mentioning that particular scene:

Forces me to provide a link and rewatch it. 😁I always love the last part.

Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.

That was in response to IReallyLikeCrows's post, as Mumsnet wouldn't let me quote that post and link to youtube at the same time. 🙄

As in like, if a trans woman is in a space that you’re in, why is that in itself a problem?

It's not, as long as it's not a female only space. Because female only spaces are for women only, and the presence of males makes them less safe for women and girls and violates our privacy and dignity. Hope that helps.

Interesting, because that sounds very similar to the “gender is a social construct! But we can’t let people self identify!” argument that I see so often here.

You don't appear to understand the difference between gender identity and biological sex.

You'd find listening to Maya helpful. Maybe listen to the JV show, it's handily linked below.

Arguably a child on puberty blockers will never become mature enough to make that decision.

Brain development/maturation continues well into our 20's.

As in like, if a trans woman is in a space that you’re in, why is that in itself a problem?

One reason is women are instinctively on high alert in the presence of unknown members of the opposite sex in particular situations. This is an evolutionary sense and a biological means of self preservation and defence. All women know that feeling and the fear that transgressing it creates. I think perhaps only women understand that. But it would be considerate to listen and try to understand when that is conveyed. Third spaces would solve the issue.

Trans people are facing increasing levels of discrimination precisely because of this kind of thing but sure, Mumsnet is as Mumsnet does I guess.

How? Can you explain (and ideally, give some evidence) how women talking about being female/biological sex/trans issues is causing trans people to be discriminated against? In what areas? Housing, employment, healthcare? Please explain the connection.

Because all I ever see is “well men will pretend to be women to get into changing rooms and toilets” (in which case, your problem is with men, not trans women);

How can we tell the difference between a man and a transwoman? Does it not worry you that adult males are now using girls' changing rooms in Primark and TopShop? Is it okay if they say they're women? How about rapists being sent to women's prisons? Is that okay with you?

I see “why do they have to be so stereotypical in their appearance” (er, because you have to live as your affirmed gender for at least two years before you can get any treatment, and do you really think people will get that if they’re not toeing the binary line?)

That's not true though, is it? You don't have to do anything to be trans, according to Stonewall. You can just declare yourself a woman and that's it. Alex Drummond is a good example. (Should Alex be allowed in girls' changing rooms?)

When adult males dress up like little girls, or in highly sexualised/pornified clothing, it does make you wonder if that's what they think being a woman is all about. Especially as they could just be a woman in a pair of jeans and a beard.

I see “what about the children” despite it being known that trans youth have some of the highest levels of mental health problems and suicide.

This is just not true, certainly about the suicide stats. Trans identified children are not more likely to kill themselves, thank god. This is a lie that's been put about by Mermaids as a kind of emotional blackmail.

Transitioning does not cure mental health problems. There's good evidence it makes them worse. Alongside causing lifelong medical problems, chronic pain, infertility, surgery complications, and early death.

So yeah, what about the children, @heresamarshmallow ?

And honestly I know you’re all probably gonna tell me I’m a snowflake or whatever but I know there are people on this site who don’t buy into this stuff. It’s just depressing to try and talk back against it.

I don't think you're a snowflake. I think you're uninformed and wrong. But happy to listen to your counter-arguments.

I felt the same as you for a long time hereamarshmallow and thought everyone should be able to identify however they like, what is the harm.

Until I found out what the harm was....it was female prison guards being raped in women's prison by men identifying as women, and that other women in the cells were raped and some became pregnant. Can you imagine the horror of being trapped in a cell with a convicted rapist? I would like you to pause and imagine the sheer terror of that happening to you or your daughter.

The harm of girls and women not being able to use the toilet for fear of men filming them, assaulting them and predators stalking around identifying as women, despite being a hairy man. This was my lived experience.

The harm to women's sports as they have no chance a biological male.

The erasure of our identity altogether as everyone from the civil service, NHS and maternity services decides to refer to 'people' or cervix havers instead of women, what hope do we have of women's rights if women no longer exist?
Why must we suffer the indignity and the danger and risk, to allow a few bio men to do exactly what they please without a thought for our safety?

(in which case, your problem is with men, not trans women)

And my last question, if the trans 'woman' has a penis, and my child or I am at risk how is that not my problem if we are in a hospital ward/prison/changing room/toilet?

I would also agree with you here trans ARE more at risk of suicide not because they are trans, but because they usually have an untreated or undiagnosed mental health condition.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with trans women in day to day life - but single sex spaces are no longer single sex if any males can also enter. Is that what you are arguing for @heresamarshmallow ? I would like to understand your rationale for abandoning all safeguarding and single sex provision when we know that this harms women and girls.

@heresamarshmallow

One of these people identify as a transwoman. One identifies as non-binary and one identifies as a man. Please tell us how we are supposed to tell the difference?

You might find this document enlightening @heresamarshmallow

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

To summarise... "male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime."

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

The problem is that, put simply, there is no way of knowing if a person is a genuine trans woman who just wants to live as a woman and get on with their own life, or a predatory male using trans as an excuse to access female spaces. How are we supposed to know the difference? We can't, so the safest thing is to not let anyone claiming to be a trans woman access these spaces.

Trans people are facing increasing levels of discrimination precisely because of this kind of thing

Female people are facing increasing levels of discrimination, prejudice, exclusion, subordination, threats and violence because of this kind of thing. This is a women's rights board, we focus on the needs of females here. They clash with the expressed needs and wishes of the TQ+ political lobby; we don't agree that females should unconditionally put up with what the TQ+ lobby complain about and refuse to accept. Why should they? 0

I genuinely don’t understand what you’re all so bothered about (I’m not trying to be flippant; I genuinely don’t understand why being inclusive to others is harmful to you)

Because TQ+ male freedom of choice from everything cannot exist alongside female equality of access, inclusion, safety and equality.

Read around, read the threads here, look at the evidence and you'll start to figure out quite quickly what female people are bothered about and why just shutting up and putting up is not a good or acceptable option. Answers have to be found that work for all, not just for males.

If you don't 'buy into' the idea that equality and inclusion should be for females too, then you do you. But you can't really expect a lot of enthusiasm for that on a women's rights board, can you?

Can we get back to Maya and ignore the derail? I thought she was clear and unruffled as usual. Jeremy Vine is definitely less hostile now.