Transwomen in women's prisons - what's the problem?

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This is one of the many fraught conversations I've had with a friend recently. She acknowledges incidents happen where a TW harms a female inmate, and agrees that is terribly wrong. However, where I say the problem is that the TW s claimed gender identity is prioritised over their sex, she says the prison system should be better at screening prisoners as often these incidents involve a TW who has previously been a risk to women, so, why were they housed with women?
She does have a point, but I think that gender identity based policies makes it hard to put this kind of screening in place... I'm finding it hard to argue it though, so maybe I'm just wrong. Thoughts?

First of all I think it’s worth pointing out that the vast, vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults don’t result in a conviction and most don’t even go to court, so there’s actually no way of knowing which men/male-bodied people have harmed women in the past. It’s also worth pointing out that if even a man has never and would never harm a woman, women can’t know that about him, and most women - especially those you’ve had experience of sexual assault, as most women in prison have, will be anxious and afraid to be trapped with them in a situation they can’t escape from. It’s absolutely awful for the well-being of women in prison, even if nothing actually happens. Women deserve to feel safe.

Well given that half of Trans id Male prisoners are Sex offenders I would have thought it was blindingly obvious.
I doubt there has been any research to see what percentage of these Men were trans before they were charged either.

Yes, good points, thanks. I think partly why she sees this so differently is because she imagines the hyper feminine gay transwoman, who would never be a threat. She thinks that the TW who poses a threat is a rare occurrence. And I think that's what most pro-gender identity people think ..

Borgqueen, yes I did say this, and I dug out a study that I'd read about from the USA that showed that data, I sent the link to her. I don't think she read it, she didn't want to know.
On the subject of "sexual offences" , is it true that this includes prostitution etc? I heard that recently and it kind of changes the picture.

I get why she's saying that, but to reach that conclusion she has ignored the 'me too' movement. It didn't really inform her or change how she thought about the risks of sexual assault. Why should women in prison have to risk an unwanted pregnancy?

On the subject of "sexual offences" , is it true that this includes prostitution etc? I heard that recently and it kind of changes the picture.

The "half of trans prisoners are sex offenders" stat usually cited is from the UK, in which case that would not include prostitution, as that's not an offence (only related things like pimping).

I guess that could change the picture for US stats, but I didn't know that we had such reliable stats for the US anyway?

On the subject of "sexual offences" , is it true that this includes prostitution etc

MOJ stats show half of all trans prisoners are dangerous offenders. Focus on the risk, thats how you do a risk assessment.
fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629

I can't remember where I read it so please, anyone, jump in if I'm wrong. I read that once a TW is categorised as a woman then risk assessment is done on that basis - which means that they are far more likely to be categorised as low risk. The crux of the matter is a TW cannot be designated as a woman and then be assessed as a male for strength, propensity for violence etc. This obviously works in favour of TW and against women prisoners.

Exactly. We risk assess based on sex because that is by far and away the biggest risk factor for sexual assault.

Prisons are segregated by sex for a reason and it's not whether you feel more pink or blue, or whether you've had a boob job, or whether you wear lipstick and grow your hair long, or whatever other criteria of gender you want to apply.

This is from Keep Prisons Single Sex.

kpssinfo.org/

"We believe that male offenders, no matter how they identify, should be risk assessed according to the provisions in place for their biological sex. However this doesn’t always happen. Where a male who has been convicted of sexual offences obtains a GRC, the risk assessment tool that is used for adult men convicted of sexual offences can no longer be used. This is because this risk assessment tool is not for use with women. We believe that this is misguided and unacceptable."

Notice it says that the risk assessment tool for men can't be used for TW because they are "women". Even when risk assessing a person WRT to other people's safety we must be careful not to invalidate their gender identity. It's insane.

I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates. Suspect these are a tiny minority, but still deserve to be treated with respect.

Then there are the often violent male sex offenders who have put a dash of lipstick on over their stubble and claimed to be women in order to avoid being on the receiving end of violence in a male prison. They're wrongfully being put in women's prisons and are plainly a huge risk.

To be honest, I think transwomen might be a bit of red herring here - the big problem seems to be the inability of the prison system to guarantee the safety of the men and women in their care.

Female prisoners also deserve to be treated with respect. Single sex facilities are not just about risk, they are also about privacy and dignity.

Here in Scotland, there's no need even for a GRC. The Scottish Prison Service operate on a self id basis and transwomen (including those convicted of sexual offences) are being placed in the female prison estate.

Unsurprisingly, many of those who declare themselves to be transwomen prior to incarceration revert to their original gender the second they leave prison - www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates.

Assuming you can discern, Layla Moran style, who presents "absolutely no danger to female inmates", then there must surely be many men meeting those criteria.

All such men should all be eligible by the same argument. Right?

have never harmed a fly

Why are they going to prison then?

I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates. Suspect these are a tiny minority, but still deserve to be treated with respect.

Everyone deserves to be treated fairly and with respect but even if we agree that some TW pose no physical danger to women and may be at risk in the male prison estate we still don't have a good enough reason to place them in the female prison estate.

A significant proportion (more than 60% IIRC) of female prisoners have experienced physical and sexual violence at the hands of men, what about their well being and right to be treated with respect?

The case by case basis wouldn't be in question if it hadn't proved to be so unreliable in determining who is and isn't a danger to female prisoners.

You might like to look at this site:

www.sexsegregatedprisons.info/

It has been put together by Clare who tracks these stats. She told us on the weekend that the % of transitioned males in prison for sex offences is very large. She pulled the stats to discover 81 transitioned males out of 126 from the 2018-19 were sexual offenders. And found just 1 transitioned female sex offender in prison since 2015 (I think from memory).

A significant proportion (more than 60% IIRC) of female prisoners have experienced physical and sexual violence at the hands of men, what about their well being and right to be treated with respect?

80% of Scottish female prisoners have suffered previous head injuries, mostly through domestic violence -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702.amp

A TW can be a man who merely says they are a woman. Genitals intact. So it's a "person with a penis" . Should any person with a penis be locked up with women?
Does your friend realise that a man does not have to have a penectomy (is that the word?) to be counted as a TW? He just has to say he's a woman.

Where a male who has been convicted of sexual offences obtains a GRC, the risk assessment tool that is used for adult men convicted of sexual offences can no longer be used. This is because this risk assessment tool is not for use with women. We believe that this is misguided and unacceptable."

If they can't be assessed as men, then the Prison service should develop a tailored risk assessment tool for transwomen that takes into account the risk levels associated with the transwoman prison population.

I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates.

It's always quite extraordinary to me how the status of the man involved is what's up for question. Never the women who have to put up with it.

Ask yourself what is in it for the women? What, exactly, is the benefit to the women?

And when you realise that they haven't even figured in your analysis, ask yourself why not?

It's always about the potential effect of the male prison on the man. Not the effect of a suddenly mixed sex prison on the women.

Even when people want to protect women's rights, they find it hard to drag their focus off the men involved in violating them.

These women are incarcerated. It doesn't matter how you risk assess the male in question, if he is saying he is a woman, he is already displaying sexism. If he has asked to be transferred to a women's prison, he is already disregarding women's boundaries and putting his sense of entitlement first. Plus, of course, he's a criminal.

It's not just about whether he's already a sex offender (of course no male sex offenders should be anywhere near incarcerated women), sexist, entitled men who doesn't give a shit about women's boundaries can make women feel petrified and humiliated without even trying.

A lascivious look, a humiliating statement. Why should women put up with any of it, purely in order to validate a man's feelings.

The very concept is misogynistic.

And look at the lack of symmetry.
Incarcerated women, the majority of whom already suffer injury from domestic violence, get housed with male criminals against their will.

Meanwhile, men, violent or otherwise, get given incarcerated women as a handy validation tool.

If she believes that prisons should be segregated by gender identity rather than sex, where does she think people with genders other than man, woman, transwoman and transman should be placed? If you change sex to gender then you have to make accommodations for all the multitude of genders. Should genderfluid people keep transferring between male and female prisons as and when they feel more male or female?

👏👏👏 standing ovation
Women are not just props for male egos.

If they can't be assessed as men

Why can't they be assessed as men? Why?
We can't measure gender identity, it has no basis in fact.

If they are not assessed as men then only women lose out.

Where is the right, in law, for a male person to have access to females?

Where is it that females are resources a male person has an entitlement to?