Transwomen in women's prisons - what's the problem?

[HeadAboveHeadBelow]

This is one of the many fraught conversations I've had with a friend recently. She acknowledges incidents happen where a TW harms a female inmate, and agrees that is terribly wrong. However, where I say the problem is that the TW s claimed gender identity is prioritised over their sex, she says the prison system should be better at screening prisoners as often these incidents involve a TW who has previously been a risk to women, so, why were they housed with women?
She does have a point, but I think that gender identity based policies makes it hard to put this kind of screening in place... I'm finding it hard to argue it though, so maybe I'm just wrong. Thoughts?

And female prisoners show far higher rates of female on female sexual offending than women in the general population.

It's a bit silly to not accept that the prison environment leads to such crimes being far more prevalent.

Male on male sexual violence is far higher in prison than in the general population too.

Exactly Datun. My first thought when reading the OP was "what's in it for women?".

That's my understanding too.

Exactly Datun. My first thought when reading the OP was "what's in it for women?".

Yes. It's such an alien concept people don't always even know what on earth you're talking about. It's all about validation for the men, what they want, and how they're in danger.

Even the question 'what's in it for the women?' will draw a blank look. As tho the very notion doesn't quite compute.

I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates.
But what about weak men, small men shouldn't they get protection too? What about non binary males? Perhaps they could all apply to be with the women as they will be safer.
Sex must take priority. The risk assessments need rewriting based on sex not gender.
If we allow vulnerable women in prison to have men with them then there is not much hope for the rest of our vital single sex spaces.

@candycaneframe

I made no reference to acts that may have happened once incarcerated and agree prison is a brutal environment.

My comment was on the crimes they were convicted of and imprisoned for.

It's so bloody infuriating. I've seen you ask that question many times on this board and I'm yet to see a response.

looking at the statistics of trans prisoners - they do not just have the same patterns of offending as men.

This.

This is statistics on the crimes that landed them in prison.

It is significantly higher - quite remarkably higher - among male trans prisoners than the rest of the male prison population in general.

And important to remember that rape has been more or less decriminalised and it is very, very difficult to get landed in prison with the label of 'serious sexual offender' without multiple, very serious crimes. Karen White for example, who multiply raped a woman on a women's mental health ward White had self ID'd into and left her so badly harmed that she may never now be able to have children, and then went on to sexually assault more women in the women's prison White was placed in. The case that has led to this thread another example; multiple very serious offenses against children.

This is highly uncomfortable information but trying to hide behind 'females do it too' is not useful or true, it's just refusing to look at and deal with the facts in order to continue to feel comfortable prioritising male interests and choosy choices over female humans' right to dignity, privacy, safety, to be regarded as equally human instead of a resource males have entitlement to. And in the case of these two insane situations created by the government and prisons; the right to not experience the easily life changing and destroying experience of being terrorised, assaulted and raped by a known, serious serial sex offender who has been locked up with you in a place where you have no ability to avoid said offender's actions. And you have nothing but the hope that today isn't the day they decide you are going to be harmed and get the opportunity.

I wonder if your friend was on a retreat or similar and had to share a room with a random man who said he was a woman... Door locked, there til morning.... Would she personally feel comfortable?

Not to mention that no one wishes to deny them the ability to identify out of or into anything they want.

It is absolutely possible to meet all the needs and wishes of male people to not be included and treated as part of their sex group, to recognise and make provision for their particular identity in a way that signals respect and consideration for it, to ensure safety, dignity, privacy etc ect. I am a strong believer in that no one should be left in a situation where they feel unsafe, vulnerable, without privacy or dignity, I would not want any TW in that situation among men in male prison facilities.

I just happen to think that female humans should be treated with equality of consideration and care.

And that all of these needs can easily met via units, vulnerable prisoner facilities etc in the men's estate or in separate estates if preferred.

It does not require providing non consenting, trapped females. No male 'needs' this. There is no male right to access to females as resources. You do not 'respect' a person by sacrificing others to them, it's not the bloody iron age. That is male supremacist insanity that should never have been allowed to happen, it is a shocking stain on the hands of the government, and it is horrific that female prisoners have already been harmed and that female prisoners are at daily risk of similar harm in order to provide their physical presence to a male prisoner who wants it.

That is all. Wants it, feels entitled to it, has lawyers and government paid political lobby groups who will stamp their feet and make nuisances of themselves if this is denied them.

Yeah, you'll never get an answer, because obviously there's nothing in it for the women. Quite the opposite.

But just asking the question makes people look twice because I bet their first thought is why should there be anything in it for them? When they're fucking falling over themselves trying to find something in it for the men.

And I'll keep asking it, until every person who reads these boards has considered the answer.

For many women, the risk of involuntary pregnancy is real.

This risk cannot every apply to men.

Damn mistype! ..."cannot ever apply to men".

Datun, there obviously isn't anything in it for women directly. But there can be a general principle of trying to meet everybody's needs as much as possible . Even if one aspect of it doesn't specifically benefit one group. A balance of rights. There will be males who experience psychological distress and feel more comfortable "living as a woman", ( and no, I don't think that concept makes sense either, but I know that is how some TW will frame it for themselves) - think of it as a mental health issue, or even a disability. So do we just say, well, tough, none of you get to be a women in this scenario (prison) even though you'll be distressed, and even though you are no danger to other inmates female or not. Personally, I think yes, that is what we need to say, (or 3rd space) as the alternatives just get too mixed up ..and risky. But I believe that most of the public get stuck on this "but what about the TW who's in mental distress" which for many (my friend, and seemingly much of the public), that is who they have in mind when considering this. Why should those individuals suffer, just because some TW are a danger.

The people most at risk in men's prisons are child killers and child abusers. We don't put routinely put them in women's prisons, often they are housed in a 'vulnerable prisoner' wing.

A male in a male prison who is in danger is not the fault of a woman, or a problem for women to solve. It is a male prison problem. Or it should be.

There will be males who experience psychological distress and feel more comfortable "living as a woman"
Can you or your friend define what "living as a woman" means? In what way can a natal male "know" what it means to be an adult human female? How is this ethereal state "as a woman" measured to determine some bloke's comfort?

his "but what about the TW who's in mental distress" which for many (my friend, and seemingly much of the public), that is who they have in mind when considering this. Why should those individuals suffer, just because some TW are a danger.
Turn this around: why should any woman's rights be set aside because a man claims mental distress based on feelings? What would the distressed man's response be when told his actions would be harmful to women? I suspect a permutation of "I don't give a fuck, because me me me", as the claim of "living as a woman" is already a misogynistic and completely selfish act.

I think your friend has got this the wrong way round. Single sex prisons are the default situation. If some people think that should change then, as far as I'm concerned, it's up to them to do the running and set out their case,

In your shoes, I would be telling your friend that, as an absolute baseline, you want evidence that no woman will be at increased risk of harm, and given that women have already been harmed by this experiment (Karen White) then that evidence, had better be pretty damn solid. . And then if she really wants to persuade you, she needs to explain - as previous posters have said - what the benefits to women are.
Tell her we're all listening.

There are transwomen who would clearly be in significant danger in a male prison, have never harmed a fly and present absolutely no danger to female inmates.

Swap out “transwomen” for “gay men”, “disabled men”, “men with learning difficulties” and the sentence still stands. Should we shove all of those in women’s prisons as well, to protect them from male violence? If not, why not?

Old men. Very young men. Men with one leg. Men with stutters. Men with… och just make prisons unisex ex? What could go wrong?

Ask your friend why she thinks the mental distress of transwomen in prison is more important than the mental distress of women in prison.

It is very rare for women (actual females) to end up in prison at all and when you understand the horrific backgrounds many of them have had with violence and abuse, primarily at the hands of men, it is a fair assumption that they will be experiencing severe mental distress already. Why then would you think it OK to exacerbate that distress by forcing them to share a space with a man, risking assault, pregnancy and trauma? Not all transwomen in prison are violent or sexual predators but there is too much evidence that this has happened to not regard it as a very real risk.

Of course transwomen should not be in danger in prison but there are many possible ways to address that which don't involve sacrificing the safety of women. Men's needs aren't more important than women's.

even though you are no danger to other inmates female or not.

you keep talking about non-dangerous, never-harmed-a-fly-TW. It must be vanishingly rare for such a person to be in prison in the first place and arguably they (and all other completely harmless people) could be dealt with in the community rather than prison.

But in reality this is not the type of person that activists are arguing should be housed with women. In reality they are campaigning for TW like Tara Hudson who was imprisoned for a violent assault against a barman. TH has gone through a significant transition and a lot of cosmetic surgeries and is portrayed as being a blameless victim for having been housed in the male estate. I agree that TH was probably not safe in the male estate but this also applies to other males and nobody is arguing that all at risk males are moved to the female estate.

A risk assessment that only allowed “harmless” TW to be accommodated with women could be considered but that would exclude TW like Tara Hudson and TH is about the best example activists can come up with when they make this argument. I suspect that’s because the harmless TW prisoner doesn’t actually exist.

How do prisons usually keep male ‘at risk’ prisoners safe then? Do they all get shunted to womens jails?

It is complete and utter fuckery! ALL the stats and data show the risk that males and especially trans-identifying males are to women. In prison and everywhere. All the data shows how vulnerable already the women in prison are, and how stressful and dangerous it is for women to be locked up with men. Governments (not just UK) should do a u-turn on this today, should have done it after the first women said no, or at least after the first woman was attacked. Actually this should never have happened in the first place. Now they have the cold, hard, stats on TiM they should reverse it. Why haven't they? OP, your friend is an idiot who's been watching too much Orange is the New Black.

Exactly. So many men are at risk in prison. It's terrible but it's a different issue.

Why should there be a sacred caste of males who not only don't have to obey the laws and rules that apply to all other men but get to reduce half the population to being their service animals and human shields?