Transwomen in women's prisons - what's the problem?

[HeadAboveHeadBelow]

This is one of the many fraught conversations I've had with a friend recently. She acknowledges incidents happen where a TW harms a female inmate, and agrees that is terribly wrong. However, where I say the problem is that the TW s claimed gender identity is prioritised over their sex, she says the prison system should be better at screening prisoners as often these incidents involve a TW who has previously been a risk to women, so, why were they housed with women?
She does have a point, but I think that gender identity based policies makes it hard to put this kind of screening in place... I'm finding it hard to argue it though, so maybe I'm just wrong. Thoughts?

Charley50 "OP, your friend is an idiot who's been watching too much Orange is the New Black" ...lol, yes she loved that show 😀 so did

Oops..so did I. That was before I had to really think about the issues involved . That show did a good job of propaganda

Yes, many people want to fall over themselves to accommodate a handful of male criminals at the expense of women.

But there can be a general principle of trying to meet everybody's needs as much as possible

Only one set of needs is being met. At the direct expense of the other.

Even if one aspect of it doesn't specifically benefit one group

Only one group is benefiting, at the direct expense of the other.

You're saying let's meet everyone's needs, but you're entirely unable to drag your focus off the needs of the men.

Fundamentally….that they have a penis

if they’ve been through the complete transition surgery fair enough, but men with penises masquerading as women should not be allowed in womens prisons, end of.

HeadAboveHeadBelow

Male prisons have vulnerable prisoner units, designed for those who aren't safe. Gay men, old men, disabled man, men with mental health issues, elderly men, and yes those who like to wear women's clothes.

The female prison is not a male vulnerable prisoner unit.

Women aren't a resource to be served up to validate men's idea of themselves.

Or, as the prison service themselves will tell you, to let them game the system. Or access further victims. Or accommodate their fetish.

Let's start with the novel practice of centring the women in this scenario. No woman should have to be sharing their space with a male criminal, however much he really, really wants it. Because, remember, it includes toileting and showers. And also remember, that the majority of these women are already survivors from male violence.

Let's start with that. No woman should be sharing their space in prison with a man.

Then ask yourself why you want men to be in there.

What specific need of the men concerned are you demanding should be satisfied by these women.

And if you can't find an equal and opposite benefit to the women, then your misogyny is showing.

I know there was an unsuccessful JR that ruled that it was lawful not to have single sex spaces but that didn't seem to consider discrimination. Has any prisoner sued for sex discrimination?

none of you get x in this scenario (prison) even though you'll be distressed

Er, if Ian Huntley explains that if he doesn't get access to children he'll be distressed would you provide him with access to children?

Male people having uncomfortable feelings does not equal serving them vulnerable, non consenting females.

There are many ways to meet the real needs of TQ+ male prisoners. None of them involve presenting them with non consenting females to use, whether this is for validation or for re offending.

What is in effect being said to the female prisoners is 'none of you get to escape x in this scenario even though you'll be distressed'.

You need to ask yourself why you are so terribly troubled by saying no to a male's desires and wishes - not needs - and how awful that will be for them, but have no difficulty at all saying that females should be highly distressed, afraid, made to share showers etc with intact males and risk/be assaulted.

You can only find logic in this if you find males are a much more special, valuable, more human thing than a female is.

And once you have done that, you have confirmed: you absolutely believe that sex is a dimorphic, fixed fact, you do not believe that any male is in fact a woman, and this is actually male supremacism. Which is unjustifiable.

No males should ever be in any female spaces and resources. Regardless of degree of transition, uncomfortable emotions, anything at all. None. No. Because as has been vigorously proven, if you say yes to any , if you say yes with gatekeeping, the next target is the gatekeeping. If it's any, then it's all. And due to people being naive and misogynist enough to buy into this, we now have women who have been assaulted and raped in order to placate a male person who would otherwise 'been distressed'. At being prevented from enjoying the assaults they carried out.

If male people are going to be distressed at being prevented from using non consenting females then they're either going to have to be provided with psychological support to deal with these feelings, or they're going to have to learn to manage. Because providing them with non consenting females is not an option.

I agree with your comment ImherewithBoudica.

No males should ever be in any female spaces and resources. Regardless of degree of transition, uncomfortable emotions, anything at all. None. No. Because as has been vigorously proven, if you say yes to any , if you say yes with gatekeeping, the next target is the gatekeeping.

And, bring my attention back to the women again, we had a woman on here once who ran a domestic violence refuge.

She said that the women working there were asked to walk really quietly (most of the place was carpeted, not floorboards), because the sound of heavy footsteps could trigger some of the women. Likewise closing doors very softly, no slamming. No raised voices.

All those things could trigger the women as it was suggestive of aggressive male presence.

But the women's attitude to mixed sex prison spaces, especially when most of them have already been subjected to male violence, is never addressed.*

And no, I'm not suggesting that prisons should be silent places, because that's completely impractical. What I am saying is that many of these women are vulnerable already to even the suggested presence of males. And now they're being expected to share their intimate spaces with men who are both sexist, and entitled. And don't give a shit about their boundaries.

• i'm sure someone can remember which man it was, exactly, who said it was fine, because the women who object are probably those who enjoy the aggro.

All those things could trigger the women as it was suggestive of aggressive male presence. But the women's attitude to mixed sex prison spaces, especially when most of them have already been subjected to male violence, is never addressed.

Tis a very interesting point, Datun.

Managing women's trauma, in an informed, researched, planned and carefully therapeutic person focused way is highly important.

Until doing so conflicts with meeting the wishes and choices of a male TQ+ person. Then it doesn't matter and they can either deal or go without services, even if that means they cannot leave a life-threatening situation.

Let's look at a few others of these:

Including disabled women and women of varied cultures and faiths is really important and services should be sensitive, careful, accessible and actively work to raise engagement from these groups and equality of reach of those groups to public spaces, services, activities and society.

Until doing so conflicts with meeting the wishes and choices of a male TQ+ person. Then those women should just be excluded without further consideration, and it's their fault and doesn't matter.

Safeguarding of children is really important and should be carefully and thoroughly planned for on the basis of what has been learned from previous disasters and closed loopholes.

Until doing so conflicts with....

is it me, or is there a sex based, fixed dimorphic pattern here?

I disagree.

Prisons should remain segregated by sex - not gender.

It doesn't matter if a TiM is extremely effeminate, has had emasculating surgery and possess a GRC- he is still male.

Whilst safety of women is paramount, it's not the only consideration. Women are entitled to privacy and dignity, too, and this goes out of the window when they are compelled to share intimate spaces with males, no matter how those males identify or how "safe" they are.

I certainly agree that TiMs are entitled to be safe in a prison situation - but that should mean addressing male violence, not using women (many of whom are very vulnerable indeed) as a shield. If there can be separate accommodation for men who are at risk because of the enormity of their crimes, then there can also be separate accommodation for men who are at risk because of their gender-identity.

No "case-by-case" basis - segregation by sex is what is needed.

I'm sure someone can remember which man it was, exactly, who said it was fine, because the women who object are probably those who enjoy the aggro

Apparently it was during the hearing that led to intact males being put in women's prisons in the first place. Expert witness James Barrett from the Gender Identity Clinic said "there will probably always be a small number of [female] prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict."

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1480673955316969474

Some good points thanks. I think it would be interesting to survey female inmates about how they feel about sharing space with TW also, anonymously. I imagine they'd rather not mostly.
Anyway, Im pretty sure that the public that agree that TW should be housed in female prisons, do not see it as TW "having access to" females", or females suffering etc as they (mistakenly I believe) think that the right TW ( that is the ones that could pass this magical risk assessment) are no risk to females, and that females would get used to having them around. When in fact, I think its probably impossible to have such a risk assessment, and as a group TW are as much of a risk at least to women as a comparable group of men. Common sense, rational argument, and data. There is no point making statements like "why should females suffer because men have feelings" etc because most people are just going to say you are being hyperbolic and talking crap.
I completely agree too that space needs to be made in the male estate for TW, or a 3rd space, as I said earlier.
Anyway, I shall bring this up with my friend again, armed with more clarity - thank you!

... also I have been trying to find the USA study I read a few years ago which had all sorts of stats and also anecdotal evidence in it about trans identified inmates. I recall that most TW request to be in the male estate as they are same sex attracted and prefer then to have access to males overall, which was interesting. It also had stats which confirmed that TW as a group were as likely or more than men, to have committed violent offences. Has anyone else got a link for that, if it rings any bells?

I still think your friend has got you running around doing all the work when they're the one who should be casting around for arguments and data. Not having a pop cos I've fallen into the same trap myself but I think it's incumbent on the people who want to make the change to justify their views, especially when talking about such a vulnerable group - incarcerated females.

This might help in relation to statistics...

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

HeadAboveHeadBelow · Yesterday 14:04
Yes, good points, thanks. I think partly why she sees this so differently is because she imagines the hyper feminine gay transwoman, who would never be a threat. She thinks that the TW who poses a threat is a rare occurrence. And I think that's what most pro-gender identity people think

Does she know the trans woman might be a paedophile? in a recent case involving the Sussex police it is clear such a person is in a woman’s prison? What is more there are pregnant women and toddlers in this prison ( but I don’t know if the child rapist trans woman is being kept away from them).

Apart from anything else, why should women in prison have to even have the association of such a repugnant person as being one of them?

Does your friend know that most trans women have intact male bodies?

Are feminine gay men who, say, might have committed fraud, ever housed with women?

I believe James Barrett is/was a medical doctor who is also a Quaker. Both of these things make his comments about 'the sort of women who enjoy conflict' much worse to my mind.

We've unfortunately got used to doctors being beholden to the gender woosters, though it will always shock me. But the Quakers gave us people like the prison reformer Elizabeth Fry, the Cadburys and the Rowntrees with their forward- thinking and desire to improve the lot of their fellowship.

Disappointed doesn't begin to cover it.

There is.

It's always the women athletes who miss out. The women prisoners who are intimidated. Women's changing rooms that are taken over, the women's outdoor swimming pools. Our words, breastfeeding, mother, even the word woman itself. It's not the other way round is it?

Women aren't clamouring to get into men's prisons, or demanding they be let into men's toilets. Men aren't worried that the word man is now meaningless. Or that their sport might be decimated, because women want to play it.

funny that.

Yes, exactly this. I'd like to see some test cases brought by males who aren't claiming a TW identity. Surely they're being discriminated against?

Yes, exactly. The way to protect vulnerable men is not to house them with women.

It's not the other way round is it?

No. It isn't.

In fact the one situation where this could have negatively impacted males is in inheritance laws where estates are entailed to males only. That was quietly taken care of legally so it isn't affected.

Turns out TMA not M when it comes to big money payouts. Funny that.

So quite why us women are supposed to put up with this bullshit is really beyond me.

It's very easy to theorise about what should happen in a ideal world. But prisons are real places and very much less than ideal. And most people don't know how prisons work in reality, and how this has played out so far in reality.

It is worth asking your friend to listen to someone who does know because she has been a prison governor who has dealt with trans prisoners in different prisons since 2010, Rhona Hotchkiss. Here she is describing her experience at "The Implications of Self-ID in Scotland's Schools and Prisons. Alloa, 6th December 2021 (Forth Valley Feminists)" The first 15 minutes are about prisons.

Primogeniture was made an exception in the GRA but so was women’s sports. Obviously the exception for women’s sport has widely been ignored. It’s amazing that there hasn’t been a case yet in view of the numbers of women now being affected. I can imagine if a TM attempted to claim an inheritance under primogeniture it would end up in court PDQ.

In a totally female prison population there are no rape by other inmates because no penis's involved. Add a transwomen into the mix and suddenly rapes occur. Nothing to do with the gender you identify but entirely if you have a penis or not.

Anyone who dismisses the idea that females should not be used to salve male feelings/meet their special needs as 'hyperbolic' and 'crap' and instead requires rational arguments and data before reaching a thoughtful opinion that perhaps it is justifiable to not provide said non consenting females and continue to watch the rapes and sexual assaults and damage pile up?

Is a male supremacist boor unfortunately. Is ethically and morally rather messed up and unable to see females as equally human, and undeserving of care until proven to the last decimal place objectively on paper according to the considered opinion of someone with no skin in the game, seeing this as a nice bit of intellectual wankery thought experimentation. I have met many, right here on the boards. One was being handed his liberal little bottom in a bag on Twitter yesterday if looking at the responses to him may be of assistance to you OP.