Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

Is Stonewall registered in the UK?

I suppose it's the "purely" element that is important.

You can lobby but there are limits

I guess they are saying that they think the sole purpose is political

As others on these threads have said, whenever LGBA try to do something (eg a helpline or a film about gay experiences come to mind) they get shot down in flames and their potential funders lobbied by TRAs.

If LGBA were left alone to get on with their job of supporting LGB people, they wouldn't need to be scrapping away for their lives like in this court.

It's an unusual situation because it's difficult to provide charitable services for just LGB when they are attacked by TRAs. They kind of need the legal protection first so that they can develop services further. Being called a hate group by TRA organisations should be completely unacceptable. Being called transphobic by Susie Green should be completely unacceptable. LGBA should be allowed to get on with their charitable work free from abuse from other charities.

twitter.com/MxVivianWulf/status/1570049911160451076?cxt=HHwWiMDRpeyE-MkrAAAA

I thought this was an interesting example of how the TRAs construct their worldview and their more surprising takes.

• This person (TRA livetweeter) has got the wrong end of the stick about the Mermaids video and is blaming Tribunal Tweets for saying something wrong that caused the judge to make an announcement.
• They're presuming on the basis of their misapprehension to tell TT to act professionally despite the fact that they started doing this yesterday and TT have been doing it for months.
• Someone in their replies is spinning off some fanfiction and saying they wouldn't be surprised if TT were lying because they're TERFs.
• Someone else in the replies appears to be claiming that TT wanted the judge to look at the Mermaids video and that they "broke away from proceedings" to accomplish this (I think referring to judge taking 20 minutes away from livestream to examine the video) and that this was "totally out of order."

A complete parallel universe of nonsense they've collectively constructed out of arrogance, motivated reasoning, reinforcing each other's confusion and being a bit thick.

So perhaps one charitable aim would be providing a safe space where LGB people can congregate and exchange ideas that do not adhere to the gender identity ideology.

They kind of need the legal protection first so that they can develop services further.

They were being called a "transphobic hate group" the moment their formation was announced, before they'd even had a chance to do anything. Have they managed to get that in evidence at all?

KH doing really well here, MG is the one using inflammatory language and she's talking it down to a level of reasonable people having reasonable concerns.

Yes, she's getting the point over really well. One tiny organisation formed against the tide of huge organisations, governments, media, etc. all captured (not in those exact words)

A pin prick on an elephant (her words)

KH: LGBA vs transgender movement is like David and Goliath. We are a pinprick to an elephant. The fight is on behalf of the children.

KH 'All we ever asked for was to talk about these issues but up until we make ourselves heard, these issues are taken as a given'

MG I'm not going to say any more about that

I bet he's not. Game set and match, KH

MG: "I'm not going to get into the legal arguments [of Stonewall law]."

I bet you're not.

😂

I'm not fully understanding the political purposes of a charity angle. Is Stonewall a charity? Weren't they set up specifically to lobby for equality for gay and lesbian people? Isn't that a political aim? And once they'd achieved that through equality law and gay marriage they went on to new political aim of lobbying for Self ID for transgender?

How is that different to what LGBA are doing?

Excellent, KH!

I suspect MG is privately agreeing with KH's very reasonable, evidence based explanations.

I wonder if Barristers have a right old moan in private about the bollocks that they have had to argue for in court. 🤔

The measured and steady evidence of the LGBA witnesses is contrasting very strikingly with that from PR, JN (!), and BB.

The measured and steady evidence of the LGBA witnesses is contrasting very strikingly with that from PR, JN (!), and BB.

You would almost think that it was LGBA that brought this case.

Although, of course, winning or losing isn't determined by which set of witnesses come across as being more rational in court.

This reminds me of a quote (don't know who by) something about the personal is political and vice versa. How are LGBA supposed to protect the rights of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people when the language is being re-written by SW to mean something completely different?

And how much she cares. I mean, who would you trust with your kids, KH or the Mermaids #notanexpert lot? Who haven't even bothered to read the Cass report?

He seems to have given up the will to fight it any more. Everything she says makes sense and it's also quite emotional hearing about the journey that launched LGBA, how it started and why it was so desperately needed.