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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/09/2022 13:56

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
TheBiologyStupid · 15/09/2022 23:54

A fantastic tweet from Rachel Rooney: twitter.com/RooneyRachel/status/1569968532393447427

(Sorry, don't know how to include a screenshot)

TheBiologyStupid · 16/09/2022 00:00

WTF?? What the hell is 2SLGBTQIA++, are they just making stuff up now?

Indeed they are: It's LGBTTIQQ2SA now... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_ecology#Definition

stealtheatingtunnocks · 16/09/2022 00:03

I’m trying to work out what
RoF
is… can’t figure it out at all.
Any one able to give me a clue?

IcakethereforeIam · 16/09/2022 00:05

Roll on Friday, I think there are links to it further up the thread. Terfy and notso-terfy legal types chat.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 16/09/2022 00:09

Ah! Thank you!

Binglebong · 16/09/2022 00:35

I was concerned about the delay until November but actually it might be good. It will give time to whip up the outrage a bit - let them less knowledgeable people know about the batshittery "And there's a hearing about it in November..." It should also mean there will space on the news/newsnight etc which there just isn't at the moment after the Queen's death.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 16/09/2022 00:48

nauticant · 14/09/2022 17:06

In case people are baffled about the stir over the poster tuesday, it's because elsewhere she posts stuff like this:

Yesterday, Michael Gibbon grilled Bev Jackson over her use of the words "male bodied people" to refer to trans women.

Her response was:

"Yes it is unfortunate that we have to say "male bodied", some people would prefer to say "men". We are asked constantly why we had to form, why we exclude trans people, there are already lots of LGBT organisations. We have had to have a position from the start."

He then made heavy weather of their deliberate decision to exclude the T, forcing her to say:

"Well, yes, that is the point. Many organisations started off as LGB and we felt that was getting lost. It never occurred to us that we would have to deal with excluding the T because the T was not the point, we were for the LGB."

He then replied by saying:

"So the decision to exclude trans people was deliberate then."

Well, yes Michael, it was. Bev has just explained why.

You can't just quietly go along with it for a quiet life, because as soon as you do anything which does not put trans people front and centre, as soon as you use any kind of vocabulary they object to, you are vilified. You can't do anything in your own interests or quietly get on with your own stuff without trans activists in your face saying, "What about trans people? Why don't you care about trans people? Are you transphobic?"

And the quibbles over the use of the expression "male bodied people".... I mean, really.

We're not allowed to call trans women "men", even if we believe that men are male people and women are female people.

We're not allowed to call trans women "male people", because that doesn't correspond to their inner perception of themselves inside their own head (even though your sex is primarily in your reproductive system, not your brain).

So we are forced to use clunky phrases such as "male bodied people" to communicate the fact that there are some situations in which people who were born (and remain) biologically male and have male bodies do not belong in female spaces, regardless of how they feel inside or even how innocent their intentions are.

But they still object to that.

At the end of the day, they aren't objecting to the words we use, but to our right to express certain concepts. Such as the concept of humans coming in two biological sexes, and there being important differences between the two sexes which are not impacted by your personal identity. And the concept of same sex attraction, meaning being sexually attracted to people of the same biological sex as yourself, i.e. people with the same kind of genitalia you have, not people who believe they identify as the same thing you are.

This is why it is naive to assume that if you ignore the nonsense and just get on with your life quietly, it won't affect you.

Sooner or later you are going to find yourself given a verbal warning at work for using the wrong pronoun, or see your teenage daughter lose her spot on the sports team to a trans identifying male teenager, or be told by a rape crisis organisation that if you don't feel comfortable attending a women only therapy group where "male bodied people" are present, they won't help you (and neither will any other rape crisis organisation).

It's just getting worse and worse, and unfortunately it's not going to stop until a majority of people stand up and say, "No. I support trans people's rights to live in a way that makes the most sense to them, but not at the expense of everyone else's rights. This has gone too far."

^ all of this this. So so so much all of this

Tuesday you're a star.

IcakethereforeIam · 16/09/2022 01:02

Today's bit in the Guardian

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/15/lgb-alliance-co-founder-breaks-down-in-court-when-asked-to-define-lesbian

Is it just me or does the article allow assertions made by Mermaids to sit unchallenged? Same writer as did the previous piece on the case.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/09/2022 02:19

TheBiologyStupid · 16/09/2022 00:00

WTF?? What the hell is 2SLGBTQIA++, are they just making stuff up now?

Indeed they are: It's LGBTTIQQ2SA now... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_ecology#Definition

LGBTTIQQ2SA (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, intersex, queer, questioning, two-spirited, and asexual)

So transsexual is back but... intersex? Is that something you can identify as now?

EfingNora · 16/09/2022 06:07

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to these threads, it's been very enlightening.

NecessaryScene · 16/09/2022 07:17

So transsexual is back but... intersex? Is that something you can identify as now?

I don't think so. But neither is "2-Spirit". There was a Canadian guide for gender for toddlers (6 to 36-months), and their "gender" page was very clear that you should support your child's gender, unless it's 2-Spirit. They're not allowed to be 2-Spirit.

twitter.com/jonkay/status/1570125488017768448

Now, I thought I was familiar(ish) with this stuff, but apparently from another questionnaire, 2-Spirit is both a gender AND a sexuality. Really?

twitter.com/jonkay/status/1570485171874598913

FigRollsAlly · 16/09/2022 07:30

That Guardian piece is good in that it makes clear that a man with a penis is considered by Mermaids et al to be a lesbian if he says so. It’s a shame the paper is too cowardly to cover what are the negative implications of that for actual lesbians.

GrabbyGabby · 16/09/2022 07:31

I think the guardian pieces have been pretty balanced. Today they led with the clear upset caused by a lesbian being asked to define and defend lesbianism. They could have led with some of the more confrontational aspects of yesterday but they didn't. I think this is the first time i have seen them ever report on the emotional toll this has taken on lesbians. The expectation to be kind has only ever been in one direction.

I wonder are they laying the ground for an opinion piece?

FannyCann · 16/09/2022 08:10

I've not had a chance to catch up on all the action from yesterday but pleased to note I have an annual leave week in Early November which I think means for once I will be able to watch the action on line in real time. Can someone kindly round up what will be happening in November. Was there just not enough time allocated to cover everything this week?

MajorieEks · 16/09/2022 08:46

The guardian article is the most read on the site at the moment

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3
IcakethereforeIam · 16/09/2022 08:54

Is it just me who had...thoughts about the article at no.5? But it was just about door handles.

Reflectiononglass · 16/09/2022 08:58

MajorieEks · 16/09/2022 08:46

The guardian article is the most read on the site at the moment

Amazing! Sunlight - and in The Guardian!

DisappearingGirl · 16/09/2022 09:18

I am thrilled this is being covered by the Guardian, and in a pretty balanced way. Most of my friends would never read the Times or the Daily Mail so just wouldn't see the discussions on this. I think that article will make people stop and think. Especially as it presents LGB Alliance as actual people with feelings.

The bit I wish they'd been more clear on is where MG says "that lesbians can include someone who is a woman as a result of gender reassignment.” You'd be forgiven for thinking this means someone who's had full surgery etc. Whereas as I understand it, it could include someone with no physical transition at all who simply says "I'm a woman".

nauticant · 16/09/2022 09:28

FannyCann, the two days in November will effectively be long speeches from MG and KM where they pull together all of the evidence that's helpful to their arguments and fit it in to the frameworks of their arguments to explain why the tribunal should find in favour of their respective clients. IS will also give a speech but it's expected to be much briefer, neutral, and so drier, and focused on the intricacies of the law and case law.

The judge has been quite firm in limiting this to 2 days and because everything relevant is known, it is unlikely that the barristers will be able to claim that something unexpected should permit them to go on longer than the timings they'll have agreed beforehand and they'd be wise not to do this against the wishes of the judges.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 16/09/2022 09:40

It’s weird there’s only 2 judges. I thought it was usually 1 or 3

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/09/2022 10:08

Just done a little gardening. I see Jo Phoenix's garden could also do with a little work

SelfPortraitWithFoxInSmokingJacket · 16/09/2022 10:27

Just saw Allison Bailey on Twitter saying that MG shouldn't have been allowed to ask about how KH was defining lesbian, and that some questions should not be allowed in court. I have to say I feel a bit weird about that, because what is so, so important here is the sunlight. Obviously it's a shitty question, but we can all see how shitty it is - and without the question we wouldn't have had Kate's answer. I hate that they're being put through this, but I am so grateful that they're standing up for what so many people believe, in a context where the stupid fucking questions can be answered with the truth. Interestingly AB said that surely no black person would be put under so much pressure to say that white people could be black - but there were those exchanges in Maya Forstater's case about Rachel Dolezal, and they were pure sunlight too.

SelfPortraitWithFoxInSmokingJacket · 16/09/2022 10:29

Also have just donated but to the charity, not to the crowdfunder - and am now worrying that the money won't go to where they need it most... Argh. Too late now, anyway. 😬

SelfPortraitWithFoxInSmokingJacket · 16/09/2022 10:37

[Correction - it wasn't AB but one of the replies who raised the analogy of race. But AB called the line of questioning "harmful".]

FannyCann · 16/09/2022 10:40

Thanks @nauticant

@IcakethereforeIam I was relieved to see the prize at number 5 is an IgNobel award 🥇 and surely a worthy winner. Grin

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