Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

If males want a word that means 'identifies as a woman and is sexually attracted to homosexual females'...

This is the crux of it. Mermaids are advocating for erasing homosexuality entirely as a concept, in order to validate a handful of men.

it's quite unbelievable.

Mermaids are advocating for erasing homosexuality entirely as a concept, in order to validate a handful of men.

Not just Mermaids, of course, the entire genderist movement.

This was seen recently in a "terms to avoid / use this instead" thing from Canada Health.

(From Jon Kay on Twitter)

WTF?? What the hell is 2SLGBTQIA++, are they just making stuff up now?

And to allude to criminal behaviour in the context of the word homosexual is so ridiculous and offensive! But god forbid you misgender someone - that's the real crime eh?

I hope that's a (terrible) joke, but I fear not.

It's so fucking offensive! 'people are homophobic, therefore don't use the word 'homosexual''

Also 'it is preferred' - holy passive voice of authoritarianism, Batman.

What they actually mean is 'you are using this phrase to avoid using terms that make it clear you believe males are lesbians if they wish to be and separating lesbians as a group male people cannot be part of'.

And they are damned right, and they cannot stop me.

I am a homosexual female.
I'm an adult human female too.

I'd point out here the irony of these orders from those who insist people's choice of label and identity and deeply held beliefs are sacrosanct, but I know by this point that 'people' doesn't mean the likes of me. So whatever.

Yes, I know, it's utterly disingenuous. A veneer of pretending that it's for your own good, while smuggling in their callous agenda.

On the political/charitable aims issue, this is Dr Jane Clare Jones.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1570360899843620864

twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1569970541368311808?t=8HUTyAPqQT4VkLV2qd20mA&s=19
Julia Hartley Brewer talks to Dennis Kavanagh from the Gay Men's Network. He's pretty forthright.

Thanks all. Looking forward to when we reconvene.

Autumn is is good time to plant perennials and such, so I've just sent some North American natives over the pond to adorn LGBA's garden. In a nod to the original pride flag:

Hot pink: Aster "Pink Crush"
Red: Cardinal flower
Orange: Asclepias tuberosa
Yellow: Rudbeckia
Green: Saguaro cactus [hard to choose just one green, but this one is long-lived, mighty, drought-resistant---and of course very prickly. Stroppy, one might say.]
Turquoise: Blue agave
Indigo: Baptisia "Sparkling Sapphires"
Violet: Monarda "Purple Rooster"

Long may their garden bloom.

Thanks to everyone for another great thread - and to Tuesday for another one over at RoF.

Yesterday, Frances Weetman described MM as

'They prepared for a Twitter spat. Not a court case'

Oops, meant to add extra thanks to nauticant for organising everything.

Mermaids are just SO sure that their view is the only correct one, and any dissent must be silenced. They think they have a GOTCHA in finding that LGBA have a sinister and secret agenda that Mermaids have cunningly revealed by listening to Bev's Speech.

They have revealed that the LGBA's SHOCKING secret sinister agenda is:

“We’re applying for charitable status and building an organisation to challenge the dominance of those who promote the damaging theory of gender identity.”

That's . . . not shocking, secret or sinister.LGBA been very open about their views and aims from the start.

If this case goes against LGBA, for the above reason, would there be anything to stop another LGB Charity being set up almost immediately, with the Charity Objectives being front and centre? (not saying they aren’t now).

Or for LGBA or a similar organisation/person to immediately appeal Mermaids charitable status on similar grounds . . .

processes have been started and political lobbying has been necessary to counter attempts at blocking funding.

Thank you. Perfectly put.

Greenpeace are an NGO, not a charity. They may have a sort of sub organisation that's charitable, my memory is a bit hazy

Mermaids are just SO sure that their view is the only correct one, and any dissent must be silenced.

And yet they must know, deep down, that their view is wrong. People who are confident in their worldview don't attempt to silence others. Martin Luther King didn't go round trying to censor racists. Germaine Greer didn't refuse to debate Norman Mailer - she shared a platform with him. The only reason to attempt to silence the people who disagree with you is because you know that when people hear their arguments they'll understand that they're right.

Yes, Greenpeace possibly wasn't the best example to use there since they have two separate organisations, one of which is a charity. It's a similar set up to Amnesty International UK. The overarching point is right though, charities can of course legitimately campaign and influence as long as they do this within the rules set out by their regulator. I suppose MM are hoping to show that LGBA aren't sticking within these rules and have been set up in a way that doesn't fit with them to begin with. I can't see how their initial set up inherently precludes them from charitable status and if it is actually about how they are operating then that should really have been taken up through the complaints process, which would ultimately end up with the regulator anyway. I think others have made this point already.

Why has it been adjourned until November?

From what I gather, because that's the next date all relevant people are available -judges, lawyers...

Can someone explain what the references to gardening mean? I'm guessing it's something to do with donations, but... Thanks

Yes, gardening is a reference to helping things grow. :)

The LGBA have had to fundraise to defend this spurious legal action.

We're not allowed to post a link on here, but if you want to donate you. can google 'LGB Alliance crowdfunder' you should find it.