Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

That's not the case being heard, though

Indeed, but if Mermaids win here, the Charity Commission (if they don't appeal) will have to become quite proactive in removing charity status from outfits like Mermaids to save themselves just repeating the court loss.

This case would dictate the Charity Commission's future behaviour and the way it behaves. It won't be a case of actually having to go to court to get them to drop people, just as we didn't have to go to court for the initial "don't drop LGB Alliance" decision. The policy changes.

I understand that, but they’re setting themselves up for someone to be able to do this to them in the future? Setting the precedent

I was just reading tHis article which I found helpful in terms of keeping focused on what the case is and isn’t about as it lays out both sides quite simply- the witnesses and barristers are covering a lot of ground and it does feel like it’s wandering around a bit

www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/tribunal-hears-charity-appeal-to-remove-lgb-alliance-from-register.html

I was trying to find some examples of similar activities,where one charity seeks to take out another, and I’m coming up blank, it really is unprecedented. I find that so interesting and I’m reading quite a lot into it in terms of a shift I’m sensing across many domains that there is One Correct Way to think. Which for a movement ostensibly about diversity and acceptance is fascinating. It’s not a new thought, but this is a very stark illustration and no wonder it feels like a grudge match. It’s the 21st century reformation in action!

The video that Mermaids put out yesterday calling LGBA a hate group; isn't this exactly the type of behaviour that LGBA are being accused of directing towards Mermaids? How can they not see that if they win this case their charity status will also be at risk.

I think that's a parody account that's suspended.

Yes absolutely.

This is a hugely frustrating part of the process.

Does anyone know when the case will conclude? Will the judge produce a report?

As I understand the reasoning Signalbox Mermaids can attack LGBA without affecting its own charitable status because it does other stuff that is charitable work, and therefore the question is, what does LGBA do that's charitable work, or what in its aims state this as its intention?

It's DARVO in action.

Can someone explain the truth and the lie thing because I don't get it. If I said it's true that MG is a 20 year old, 6 foot 7 black man, is it true, or am I lying? How about if he said "no I'm not" and I repeat that I think what I said is true because I believe it to be so. There surely has to be a line where it doesn't matter what "my" truth is? In fact, is this that "the truth/my truth" thing?

what does LGBA do that's charitable work, or what in its aims state this as its intention?

Well, they've applied for funding for a your person's LGB helpline, but that's on hold until the funder knows if they're a charity or not. They haven't had time or funds to do much else other that awareness raising of the issues impacting young LGB people.

Their aims say to support LBG people, IIRC

KH's answer here effectively is that LGB excluding the T isn't excluding trans people, but excluding the T ideology.

Ah right. I wouldn't know as he has of course blocked me.

You aren't lying if you believe it. It could legitimately be argued that you aren't a liar, even if what you are saying is "a lie".

MG: Isn't "anti-idelogy" the same thing as "anti-trans"?

FFS it is not the same, it is a deliberate misunderstanding.

KH: "the phrase "anti-trans" is rolled out to silence people".

She said loads of great stuff in addition.

There are lots of trans people who agree with what LGBA say too, would he say they anti-trans?

Oh, Kate's on it.

In a general (non legal) sense I would see a lie as deliberately misleading someone. So if you genuinely believe that MG is a 20 year old, 6 foot black man and you describe him to someone else as being a 20 year old, 6 foot black man you are not lying to that person but you are misleading them. It's hard to imagine a scenario where someone would genuinely believe that but that is where we are with TWAW and people can choose their sex. Personally I think that "mislead" is probably a better choice of words in this scenario. People have convinced themselves that these things are true.

When the discussion strays into MG seemingly trying to enforce an ideological belief system, because to oppose it has overtones of "heresy", I wonder what's going through the judges' heads, I wonder if they're thinking "how the fuck do we assess this?"

Because make no mistake, this part of the discussion is MG asking "how on Earth can you think these horrible things?" with many of KH's answers being that those on the other side are free to believe whatever they want because we're in a pluralistic democratic society.

Last witness, Eileen Gallagher for LGBA.

@crabbyoldbat
Well, quite!
I really hope that at some stage - perhaps in the evidence of the LGBA chairwoman - it is made clear to the tribunal how much time and resources LGBA, a volunteer organisation, has had to devote to fighting legal and regulatory challenges almost from the day of its inception. Also the dishonest pressure successfully put on the London Arts Board to rescind their grant for the film about gay history and John Nicholson's opposition to the funding for the gay helpline. It's a bit rich of MM and Maugham to claim LGBA don't do charitable work, while hampering its ability to do any.

Eileen Gallagher witness statements 2 different ones.

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf