Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

I became seriously ill in my twenties and was cared for by a community of rural lesbians. I owe those ladies my life. I will always defend lesbians.

IIRC, Glinner's said part of his own motivation is a slightly lower-key version of that story - I forget what it was exactly, but something like being taken in by some lesbians when first moving to London to work in his youth. He's thinking of them.

Good morning all.

This is a gripping case, sadly I'm only following here and on TT, but I thought it timely to suggest a walk through the LGBA garden with a few seeds or bulbs. It's still somewhat sparse, I hear.

Oh - thank you! I'll have a look at that. I hadn't even heard of this case - I wonder how many are going on, or in the pipeline at the moment that will be hitting the headlines soon.

(Hoping it's a LOT!)

For anyone on the thread looking to get in the mood for the resumption of the hearing, starting at 9am on Radio 4 is In Our Time which today is looking at Orwell's 1984:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001bz77

the vast majority of trans adults are not straight

Is she referring here to the vast majority of adults who transition later in life, who are mainly heterosexual men who then redefine themselves as lesbians? Is she using these men to argue that transing children isn't gay conversion?

That's what I assumed, Crone. It's the only way that the stats hang together.

I've lost the post now, but on a previous thread someone reminded us all that this isn't the first time Mermaids' actions have been brought up in court.

In 2016 Judge Hayden oversaw a family law case where a 7 yo boy was brought up as a girl by the mother but the separated father was concerned this was not what the child wanted. If you read the judgement, the evidence is absolutely gob-smacking. I won't use the word we all know but the mother was asserting her own influence over what sex she thought the child wanted to be.

"It is impossible to construe this contact as anything other than harmful to J, it is corrosive of his emerging identity and it pressurises him to be something that he does not, at least at the moment, want to be. It was following this contact that J wet the bed twice. I find that this was most likely as a result of the real distress caused by the pressure put on him to be a girl at this session. Ms Sambrooks considered that contact workers should intervene directly if this happened again and consideration given to terminating direct contact. I agree."

The judge apparently made comments that Mermaids should not contact the boy either.

The current case is not the place to bring this up, but it's worth bearing in mind.

Judgement - www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

Summary showing evidence of Mermaid's unprofessional treatment and behaviour
4thwavenow.com/tag/transgender-girl-uk-case/

Re the vast majority of trans individuals not being straight

don’t forget BB and Mermaids count ‘Queer’ as ‘not straight’, and as we know, queer can mean any bloody thing, from ‘same sex attracted’, to ‘has interestingly coloured hair’, to ‘enjoys wearing a dog collar at weekends’

and as pointed out, in their topsy turvey world, two people of opposite sexes can be in a gay relationship

so it’s really impossible to know what they mean

Don't forget what might have been the first day Mermaids had in court over seeking to enforce their ideology:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html

That’s what I thought. It’s really not a convincing anti LGBA argument, is it?

As it just illustrates another reason for the LGBA to exist, that ‘transbians’ are attempting to prevent lesbians from self defining in a way that doesn’t include them.

it’s also possible that BB’s 91% non-straight trans people are using the ubiquitous and unfathomable catch all of ‘queer' and thus we really know nothing about their actual sexual orientation at all.

which is another reason for LGBA to exist, as the legal protections for homosexuals and bisexuals are specifically worded in a way that actually references same sex relationships and any alteration to the words or definitions of those laws could have the unintended consequences of weakening current protections.

I've been reading the TTs about this case.

I'm not sure whether they're going to win because there was a lot going on at the time (covid etc). However, joining a scheme which gets people to chant about 'smashing heteronormativity' seems deeply problematic when dealing with children, many of whom will have 'heteronormative' parents. It's violent language against what is an accepted lifestyle and forms the basis for many of these children's family structure FFS. Their 'safe space' - essentially it's saying let's smash these kids safe family structure.

I found that really deeply worrying when I read it. It seems so very inappropriate for a school and clearly a political agenda.

Whether or not there's a win in this case it should provide sunlight on the nature of these 'award' 'diversity and inclusion' schemes in schools and provide a very very big question mark over whether getting involved with them is in the best interests of children.

*"In para 34 she sidesteps Mermaids advocacy of "affirmation without exception" and the pressure it had exerted claiming that:

I have already stated that Mermaids is not directly involved in medical treatment of children with gender dysphoria, nor do we recommend medical treatment, though we do support children and families who are navigating the process. Our view, in short, is that the medical intervention of puberty blockers (the only form of intervention available to someone under 16) will be the best option for some children with gender dysphoria; for many they will not be."*

It is OUTRAGEOUS that Mermaids are saying this now, when the evidence from GIDS clinicians and the board papers is very clear - they were absolutely putting pressure on the service to fast track medical transition. As reported by GIDS clinicians and in the Cass report. They were providing supporting letters, coaching families what to say, influencing the board, contributing to the environment and culture that led to so many clinicians leaving.

And for the avoidance of doubt, I think that obviously gay relationships and gay families should also be taught in schools but I can't see how 'smashing heteronormativity' is progressive in any way. What if people just want to be in a heterosexual relationship, is that now somehow not allowed? It's no wonder loads of heterosexuals are rebranding themselves as queer whilst literally nothing else changes. It's very Orwellian.

Has anyone got a copy of the tweet that mermaids sent about why minors should be able to consent to treatment like puberty blockers, hormones and surgery. I can't remember in detail. But it was along the lines that they are allowed to consent to other surgery, so why not that one.

Morning all

Morning Ickky!

Morning ickky, and all!

Morning! What's on the agenda for today?

Looks like a lot of people are in and another 40 odd waiting in the lobby.

Also, I wonder how on earth the conversation goes as to whether or not one of the children under mermaids is gay or straight.

If they're not sure whether they are trans, they will vacillate between being gay or straight, whilst still remaining attracted to exactly the same person.

It's barking.

And I really hope they are nailed down about it. You can be gay or straight, whilst remaining attracted to exactly the same sex either way, or indeed the same person.

Kate and Eileen will finish witness part and then hopefully closing submissions.

I'm still waiting for the conference host to join, and I was here in good time today.

Hi all, how can I apply to the court to be able to watch the hearing? Thanks!

The clerk has been busy with some tech issue, should be letting people in now.

The court hasn't started yet.

Morning everybody. Am in and waiting for things to start