Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/09/2022 13:56

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
ADreamIsAllINeedToGetBy · 14/09/2022 20:47

It just shows that the truth is something completely alien to mermaids. They make up any old shit and expect everyone to believe it completely

SlipperyLizard · 14/09/2022 20:51

Hey @IamTuesday nice to see you here. I’m
an infrequent RoF poster but try to pop by every so often to show my support <heads off to RoF to show support>. Your posts are superb, they often reflect exactly what I’m thinking.

It is even more toxic than Twitter, though, and that’s saying something!

RoyalCorgi · 14/09/2022 20:59

maltravers · 14/09/2022 20:15

Really interesting. There was a time when the Guardian wouldn't have reported this at all, they'd simply have pretended it wasn't happening, but this is quite a full report.

Amelia Gentleman, the journalist who wrote it, is married to Boris Johnson's brother. I wonder where she stands on the whole issue.

maltravers · 14/09/2022 21:33

The piece seemed reasonably even handed to me, which was encouraging. It was a bit disappointing that the consequences of changing the definition to “same gender attraction” (the pressure to accept transbians as partners) was not covered, but many important matters were.

FacebookPhotos · 14/09/2022 21:37

They make up any old shit and expect everyone to believe it completely

I’m probably reading too much into it, but when Mr Gibbons said about the Queen’s death impacting the release date I got the impression he didn’t like using that as an excuse, but had to because that was the instruction he had received.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/09/2022 22:05

I have just caught up on these threads which are really interesting and informative - thank you.

One question for people in the know. If the outcome of this case touches on the fact that MM doesn't believe in same sex attraction and is by virtue of the fact homophobic is there a possibility of sanctions against it?

Surely a charity which has beliefs that contravene equality laws can't be allowed to continue?

I mean, I'm really shocked that they have openly admitted their position on this in such a public forum!

AspireMe · 14/09/2022 22:28

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/09/2022 19:00

i love how robust everyone is allowed to be on RoF

'Nobody starts life with breasts, Warren, you tool'

Grin

it would certainly add a little piquancy if we were able to speak to our visitors in those terms

Have you ever read a LipstickAlley (black women's forum) or Datalounge (gay men's) forum on this subject!? They make ROF look like kittens. Not sure if I'm allowed, or should link, but easy for anyone to find threads on both sites with their search features, even without signing up as a member.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 14/09/2022 22:33

One question for people in the know. If the outcome of this case touches on the fact that MM doesn't believe in same sex attraction and is by virtue of the fact homophobic is there a possibility of sanctions against it?

I don’t know but it seems like Mermaids have revealed multiple extremely good grounds for complaining to the Charity Commission about them.

forms.charitycommission.gov.uk/raising-concerns/

Honestly I don’t see how they survive this case, especially if they win it!

TheBiologyStupid · 14/09/2022 22:43

Emotionalsupportviper · 14/09/2022 20:46

*nothing

Sorry, but I'm taken already. My adherence to the rules of punctuation is just too damn irresistible, apparently! (Now that I've said that, I'm very likely to be a victim of Muphry's law: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law )

FannyCann · 14/09/2022 22:45

If you want to see how mad things have got, check out the breastfeeding thread on RoF.

Top reply Grin (referencing use of domperidone).

"My wife also had the occasional glass of Domperignon when she was breast feeding and it didn't do any harm to our kids."

lifeturnsonadime · 14/09/2022 22:46

Yes that's what I mean, presumably the fact they have spent funds to pursue a homophobic objective, to remove the right for same sex attracted people to have their own charity, is enough.

Otherwise charities could be set up ostensibly to do one thing but to harm another protected group.

Oh wait that is the whole MM argument against LGBA!

I really don't think they can have thought this through.

TheBiologyStupid · 14/09/2022 22:47

Oops, blew that - apologies to both @Emotionalsupportviper and @zaramysaviour !

blahblahblahspoons · 14/09/2022 23:00

lifeturnsonadime · 14/09/2022 22:46

Yes that's what I mean, presumably the fact they have spent funds to pursue a homophobic objective, to remove the right for same sex attracted people to have their own charity, is enough.

Otherwise charities could be set up ostensibly to do one thing but to harm another protected group.

Oh wait that is the whole MM argument against LGBA!

I really don't think they can have thought this through.

It's absolutely bonkers, it really is. Most of the LGBT charities seem to be largely political lobby groups these days with very clearly pro-trans anti-women* agendas.

If MM's case wins then the lot of them will have to go too. They really haven't thought it through unless they're hoping it's one rule for everyone else and another for them. I don't think this works in law.

*women who believe in biological reality, sexual dimorphism and who want single sex spaces.

Rose1957 · 14/09/2022 23:25

I think anyone can see the genuineness of Bev and Kate, which was so moving. I became seriously ill in my twenties and was cared for by a community of rural lesbians. I owe those ladies my life. I will always defend lesbians.

TheBiologyStupid · 15/09/2022 00:25

maltravers · 14/09/2022 21:33

The piece seemed reasonably even handed to me, which was encouraging. It was a bit disappointing that the consequences of changing the definition to “same gender attraction” (the pressure to accept transbians as partners) was not covered, but many important matters were.

Absolutely.

In evidence given earlier in the week Dr Belinda Bell, chair of the trustees of Mermaids, said it was implausible to suggest that gay children would embark on the difficult process of transitioning in response to homophobia, and noted that the vast majority of trans adults are not straight, so the process of transition could not accurately be described as gay conversion.

TheBiologyStupid · 15/09/2022 00:29

D'oh -posted before I had finished. I meant to say that given Mermaids' muddled definitions it was impossible to unpick exactly what she was saying. Which is precisely why LGB Alliance want to retain sex-based language, of course.

TheBiologyStupid · 15/09/2022 01:40

Just reading the various witness statements. (I really wish MN enabled blockquote).

Paul Roberts keeps quoting quite reasonable things that LGB Alliance had said (based on, er, actual science and other such evidence-heavy nonsense) as part of his take on things. I suspect that his statement doesn't read the way he thinks it does!

John Nicolson blathers on a lot. But the LGB Alliance allowing him to be vilified during their fundraising was a misstep (as Kate Barker freely acknowledged in her testimony today).

Belinda Bell's is the most shocking, as it twists everything so much:

In para 32 she denies that homophobic parents would prefer trans rather than gay children. Channelling her inner homophobia, she says, without evidence, that:

Adults who are homophobic might be expected to have less tolerance for trans children, not more". She then goes on to state, "Transition would not be an effective strategy for homophobic parents who wanted to make their children straight. The Government’s National LGBT Survey in 2018 found that just 9.4% of trans people identify as straight; 73.1% said they were bisexual, gay, lesbian, pansexual or queer [BB1/72-74]. In other words, many trans people are attracted to people of the gender to which they have transitioned, many others have more complex sexual identities, but very few consider themselves straight. In any case it is not clear to me how it would be possible to “trans” someone out of being bisexual – following transition they would still likely be bisexual".

It is difficult to understand her point given the muddling of "same-sex" and " same-gender" that gender identity ideology promotes.

In para 34 she sidesteps Mermaids advocacy of "affirmation without exception" and the pressure it had exerted claiming that:

I have already stated that Mermaids is not directly involved in medical treatment of children with gender dysphoria, nor do we recommend medical treatment, though we do support children and families who are navigating the process. Our view, in short, is that the medical intervention of puberty blockers (the only form of intervention available to someone under 16) will be the best option for some children with gender dysphoria; for many they will not be.

In para 38 she uncritically cites:

A recent study published by the Tavistock, “Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK”, recorded that 43 of 44 young people prescribed puberty blockers went on to the next stage of treatment, cross-sex hormones, and benefited from that treatment [BB1/78-79]. This suggests that the screening and information sharing process before puberty blockers are prescribed is indeed sufficiently robust and capable of identifying young people who will benefit from medical intervention.

Yes, but: a) that supports the puberty blocker to cross-sex hormone data and b) is reliant on the lack of follow-up data for which the Tavistock/GIDS has been criticised for and why it is closing.

In para 39 she says:
Our view is that the current waiting times (up to two years) are too long, and that distressed children should be seen in a timely fashion, in line with the specified NHS target of 18 weeks – but it is absolutely right that once the process is underway, it is rigorous and involves comprehensive assessment and support, as one would expect in any area of healthcare.

LGB Alliance would agree, but BB's claims are at odds with the affirmation model that Mermaids has promoted thus far - is she saying that it has changed and was wrong?

Para* 41: In the 1980s, however, fears that children were being “indoctrinated” and “turned gay” by the “gay lobby” were widespread; they led to Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988, the infamous provision which stated that local authorities were not allowed to “promote homosexuality” or “promote the teaching in any maintained school of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship”. Many LGB people who grew up under that regime still bear the scars of the culture of silence and denial it created.*

Indeed, that's why Stonewall was originally founded. The fact that some of its founding members now no longer feel able to support it is precisely why the LGB Alliance came into being!

Para 52. She says that the LGB Alliance "accuses Mermaids of homophobia (in fact, as explained, Mermaids proudly welcomes all LGB+ people")

But given the same-sex/ same-gender definitional split that is clearly understood. It is this division that poses an existential threat to Mermaids and Stonewall, hence this hearing.

In paras 62-65, BB claims that LGB Alliance uses its charitable status to deny being a hate group. Well, of course. And yet, even so, the Alliance had been blocked from major political parties at their annual conferences.

Still have the LGB A's witness statements to read....

Impossiblenurse · 15/09/2022 06:56

'Winning' might be the last thing MM or other LGBTQ charities want.

If, as a result of this action, they are diminished in the public eye (or collapse due to public/sponsors waking up to their practice), devotees will consider the 'characters' involved as martyrs.

So far the MM, LGBTQ and political evidence has been a willfully ignorant, narcissistic temper tantrum made flesh. Martydom would be excellent legacy for their already inflated egos ... but its all a bit fishy.... IANAL but I wonder if it also gets them off the hook in terms of future litigation? If the organisation no longer exists....but when it did exist it gave inappropriate legal and medical advice to service users....?

I fear the NHS is going to take the hit for all of this and whilst I believe some of this is deserved, it doesn't seem wholly fair.

GrabbyGabby · 15/09/2022 07:24

It can't be said often enough or loud enough what the CEO of this 'charity' did to their child on their 16th birthday.

We aren't allowed to use the correct and accurate language for what was done to that child here, for the ban hammer will come.

I did use it with our HR director when i found out that they were supposed to come and do some training in my workplace. The invite was hastily rescinded.

When the correct and accurate words are used for things its amazing how much clarity it brings. Language matters.

MrsJamin · 15/09/2022 07:36

Just putting this here in case anyone hasn't seen it. Why the kid responds to the parents describing toys as girls toys is so very very clear...

Emotionalsupportviper · 15/09/2022 07:49

Apologies if anyone has posted this link (Glinner), but it has mentioned another case going on at the moment that I was unaware of, and people might be interested.

www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/christian-chaplain-refused-join-chant-7557097

Emotionalsupportviper · 15/09/2022 07:55

TheBiologyStupid · 14/09/2022 22:47

Oops, blew that - apologies to both @Emotionalsupportviper and @zaramysaviour !

Too late for an apology - you have literally erased us!

Deliriumoftheendless · 15/09/2022 07:56

Rose1957 · 14/09/2022 23:25

I think anyone can see the genuineness of Bev and Kate, which was so moving. I became seriously ill in my twenties and was cared for by a community of rural lesbians. I owe those ladies my life. I will always defend lesbians.

This needs making into a movie.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2022 08:09

Apologies if anyone has posted this link (Glinner), but it has mentioned another case going on at the moment that I was unaware of, and people might be interested.

I think Tribunal Tweets is covering it on their second account:

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets2/status/1570084667075825664?s=46&t=h8jYbTk674SPdiBM1quQzg

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/bernard-randall-vs-trent-college

Moonatics · 15/09/2022 08:12

I am all caught up for now, also marking my place. My word its gonna make a most Brilliant play. I can see it off, off Broadway and the west end and all the local provincial theatres.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread