Transgender Couple with Children making me rethink

[IloveHolby]

This link was in Glinner's twitter this morning www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11190271/Meet-mum-dad-whove-swapped-gender-just-second-child.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#reader-comments

Seem like a lovely couple, I'm still trying to square a circle in my head - I absolutely think Self-ID opens up women to risk from men who have paraphilias and that sex does matter, but I have empathy for transpeople who just want to get on with their lives.

A few things came up for me in this article - the hospital ward; why would
Hannah Graf need to be on a ward when Hannah was not the one who gave birth? Probably not really relevant but I'm curious about that. I know that Debbie Hayton has said she (has GRC so I'm using she) is given a private room, and I'm pretty sure Debbie has had SRS but doesn't feel she should be on female ward.

Sport - Hannah says Hannah doesn't feel comfortable going to play sports because of the current furore - this raises my anger actually, along with the TWAW, TMAM t-shirts - they are public figures as transgender, they acknowledge they are different in this respect. Why can't people be proud of their difference and their transgender status? Hannah went through male puberty, are there are non-competitive sports Hannah could participate in without having to come out as transgender?

At the same time I think which changing rooms and toilets should they use when they appear male (but bio female) and female (but bio male)? I watch Blaire White and have read /seen interviews with Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley but haven't seen anything where they discuss this. Which do they use?

Then of course there is the issue of using a surrogate - not something I'd ever thought deeply about before the thread on here about it, but that's a separate issue. This post is really to ask for help to square the circle - it really doesn't seem we can differentiate between people with a GRC who do 'pass' and those with paraphilias but it seems unfair to the transgender people who do just want to get on with their lives.

That should be 'can't' differentiate.

I don’t care what Hannah Graf think. Hannah Graf is male, and cannot dictate to me what should and shouldn’t be acceptable in female only issues.

The individuals are always nice people. They are after all just people. The whole TRA thing is never about individuals as human beings. It's about how many trans people want to interact with the world - or rather have it interact with them.

It is, as you identify, the whole sense of entitlement, sense that the world needs to change to not only accommodate them but to centre them as Very Special, Important People.

The ways they use other human beings to get what they want and then expect to be lauded for it.

The dismantling of other people's boundaries, wishes, thoughts, feelings in order to accommodate, centre, appease.

I don't think it's nice to rent a woman's womb and buy a baby so that you can pretend to be mommy.

But I was all too aware that there might be someone who thought I didn’t belong, as a trans woman, on a labour ward, and in the current culture might be emboldened to kick up a fuss.’As it happened, Hannah was given a private room

This makes no sense at all.

Why would a person ( any person) who is biologically and legally unrelated to either the woman giving birth or the baby being born, be on the labour ward at all? Why would Hannah be given a private room? For what?

The article says the birth was in Ireland, the only Hannh was given a private room was if they paid the going rate for a private room, and they had a clinical need for one.

Are these people delusional?

That bit I absolutely understand @SamphirethePogoingStickerist but not all trans people have that entitlement do they? TRAs have definitely done a huge disservice to the trans community with their demands, no-debate and aggression.

I'm just feeling a bit confused about how the individual transpeople like this couple should function in the world eg if they need to use a public loo, or changing room, how they do function?

They are a heterosexual couple. Jake is the mother (Jake's eggs) and Jake likes to present themself in the male gender stereotype. Hannah is presumably the father (unless they used donor sperm) and likes to present themself in accordance with female gender stereotypes. Hannah would have absolutely no requirement to be given a private room, given Hannah was not the one giving birth, the surrogate was. I very much support their desires as a couple to live their lives without fear or harassment but I do object to them both trying to lecture us on what a man and a woman or father and mother are. I also disagree with them bringing an innocent child into a situation where both parents obviously have complex issues.

It’s really not our problem. All I know is males shouldn’t be allowed in female spaces, end of. Don’t fall into the trap of tying yourself in knots trying to work out a solution - they’re the ones who have distorted reality/biology/language, they can come up with something.

I read about this couple. I recall seeing them on TV before they had kids too. I think they seem a really nice pair. My stance has always been it's absolutely fine to be trans, I will happily call Hannah a she as per her preference. I'm also actually fine with Hannah and trans women using women's toilets. Yes she's still biologically male, but she's also just quietly going about her business. For decades we've muddled along just fine on this front, genuine trans people were using the toilet that they preferred and there were zero issues. It's only now, that a minority of vocal trans people are coming and effectively spoiling it for everyone because the self ID proposals and TWAW mantra threaten women by allowing predators entry. The predators are not trans people, they're sick individuals using the word as a cover to gain access. On the sport front I do disagree with Hannah. She should be introspective enough to accept that her genetics do necessitate her exemption from the female category of some sporting events. But that is surely a tiny price to pay, much like she can't carry and bear children but has still found an alternative route to motherhood. Alternative sports and mixed sex sport teams are very much available to her.

she was afraid to be in a women’s ward after Teddie’s birth.

GOOD. Though shame would be a more appropriate emotion. Why the hell was “she” on a labour ward? That’s absolutely awful, so intrusive on the labouring women.

So hostile is the feeling towards transgender women, Hannah says she also avoids female changing rooms.

GOOD.

Hannah regrets that even team sport at its most informal is now denied to her.

that’s terrible… oh, no, wait, “she” means women’s sports. GOOD.

Seems like this person has more shame and human decency than many transwomen who do rampage through women’s spaces and women’s sports. But it’s still nowhere near an adequate amount of human decency. The attempted guilt trip is unacceptable.

Why are maternity health resources being wasted on someone who has absolutely no need for them? They are not nice people if they are demanding to have a private room on a labour ward when they have not and never will be either pregnant or in labour. They are denying that space to women with real clinical need in order to fulfil some handmaiden type fantasy.

Not sure I’d call being interviewed in the FT and the Daily Mail is what I’d call quietly getting on with your life but each to their own. Also no stereotypes to see here...

It is really simple, it just takes a bit of bravery.

Allow yourself to know the truth about male physicality (stronger muscles even when shorter, bigger lung capacity, ability to rape, inability to become pregnant from rape) and crime statistics (well over 90% of sexual and violent crimes are committed by males).

Single sex spaces are based upon sex and nothing else.

Passing is a cruel concept, very much harder for transwomen, and is inherently transphobic.

The vast majority of people follow laws and social norms without constant police presence. We are allowed to have suspicions about those that don't. So no need for "genital policing" and to suggest otherwise is to suggest trans people can't obey the law, which is genuinely transphobic.

Once the above is understood we can work on the homophobia and transphobia which presumably some men direct at transwomen to cause them discomfort in the men's. We can also offer 3rd spaces. If transmen want to use the men's, let them, but the people who love them should be clear to them about the risks of doing so.

It is about the discomfort of subsection of males, vs the actual safety of all females.

I think about this too, and as much as no one wants to admit it, it comes down to passing, if you pass as the opposite sex you can generally go about your business unnoticed, Blair white is a prime example, Blair looks very female, if you saw her in the toilets you wouldn't take a second glance, but Blair has obviously spent a lot of money on surgery etc... to look. "Gemma" from down the road that pops a wig on, a dress and lippy, well it's pretty obvious to us all they they aren't female.
Buck angel is another, if I saw buck in a woman's toilet I would very much feel intimidated, but yet that's where buck is "supposed to go"
I think ignoring the issue and just saying it their problem to solve does nothing, it's a real and current issue and I do think we should acknowledge it's not always as clear cut as we might like.

Individual hospital rooms should be provided based upon need. If you've ever had a loved one suffer birth complications or contract MRSA you'll understand this.

It would probably be easier if we understood men's facilities as open. Ditto sports.

That way all the women who claim other women don't need single sex provision can use it in support of transwomen doing so too.

I was just going to say that about side rooms; they are for people who really need one, who shouldn't be on the main ward for medical reasons.

I'm not really clear on what you are trying to say, OP. I can't tell what your original opinion was or what you have revised it to.

Personally I no longer support the Gender Recognition Act. I think the only person who should be able to revise their birth certificate is someone who was born with a severe DSD. Some facilities are provided by sex because sometimes sex matters, and that's how they should be used. No exceptions.

I am not convinced even Blair would pass in real life - Blair will still have a male gait, male smell, men's hands...

As for outing themselves transgender when playing sport, surely the best way to avoid this is for transwomen to play sport alongside other men?

We can be nice to actual trans people (lots of us have trans friends or gender questioning children) but the law for single sex spaces needs a line and there is no suitable place to put the line except male/female.

you can theoretically get a GRC without having any medical intervention at all, certainly at the moment, lots of trans people are being granted GRCs before they even have a first appointment on the NHS, due to waiting lists (this is accomplished via a private diagnosis from a specialist on a published list, a form filled in by any other doctor, eg GP, private or NHS, plus two years of bank statements/gas bills in their new name)

Humans cannot actually change sex so for those who really can’t be accommodated in their birth sex, third spaces are the practical answer.

Miranda uses male spaces, Debbie has been ‘on a journey’ after being told off by feminists so probably uses a mix, depending on who is there to disapprove, and Blair uses women’s loos but avoids locker rooms and changes at home, I believe.

Miranda and Fionne have a petition about it (sadly didn’t get much attention): www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women

Fionne’s an interesting example of someone who ‘gets it’ and doesn’t encroach on Women’s’ spaces but cannot quite give up on the dream:

www.lauradodsworth.com/freethinking/2020/7/24/fionne-orlander-standing-in-the-ruin-of-gender

Whereas Miranda has thoroughly binned all the theoretical underpinnings but is happy with his name (big history of men in Rock adopting female nicknames, eg Alice Cooper, Rachel Bolan).

Corrina Cohn transitioned as an older teen and has recently said that if detransition were possible, they would, but having never been a man, there is no man to go back to being. Must be a strange place to be. Corrina described it as ‘disenchantment’.

corinnacohn.substack.com

my personal position is that the line must be male/female and that a decent human being will respect that, even if they desperately wish it wasn’t so. Anyone who rejects third spaces as a compromise is a red flag.

Oh, and surrogacy is human trafficking.

Eurghhj I hope the private maternity room is a miscommunication. I would have paid good money for one when I was on postnatal ward for 5 days being treated for sepsis and not sleeping, but it wasn't an option. Would hate that someone cosplaying as a woman got one.

Who do you think does the wife work in this relationship?

oops. I wrote a long post with a petition link in it, but only because the petition is Miranda and Fionne asking for third spaces (not because I’m encouraging people to sign it).

hopefully MN will reinstate my post with the link removed, as it was a long post that I spent some time on!

I watched a TV documentary about this couple a while back. They came across as a really nice couple who just wanted a quiet life. In all honesty if Hannah went into a female toilets would anyone think she was a man? I don't think I would. I'm not a huge fan of surrogacy but if there are women who willingly wish to do this, who are we to judge?
These 2 people are not the grotesque caricatures that we see on parades spewing hatred against women, they just want a life and family like most other people. So why not let them?

Completely agree with this.

They are a heterosexual couple who have bought two babies from a woman.

People who buy women's bodies and babies aren't nice people.

hopefully MN will reinstate my post with the link removed, as it was a long post that I spent some time on!

I think a good bet is to report your following post to get their attention, asking to restore the post above. Worked for me the other day. I'm not sure how pro-actively they monitor the stack of "until the MNHQ team can have a look at it" messages.