Transgender Couple with Children making me rethink

[IloveHolby]

This link was in Glinner's twitter this morning www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11190271/Meet-mum-dad-whove-swapped-gender-just-second-child.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#reader-comments

Seem like a lovely couple, I'm still trying to square a circle in my head - I absolutely think Self-ID opens up women to risk from men who have paraphilias and that sex does matter, but I have empathy for transpeople who just want to get on with their lives.

A few things came up for me in this article - the hospital ward; why would
Hannah Graf need to be on a ward when Hannah was not the one who gave birth? Probably not really relevant but I'm curious about that. I know that Debbie Hayton has said she (has GRC so I'm using she) is given a private room, and I'm pretty sure Debbie has had SRS but doesn't feel she should be on female ward.

Sport - Hannah says Hannah doesn't feel comfortable going to play sports because of the current furore - this raises my anger actually, along with the TWAW, TMAM t-shirts - they are public figures as transgender, they acknowledge they are different in this respect. Why can't people be proud of their difference and their transgender status? Hannah went through male puberty, are there are non-competitive sports Hannah could participate in without having to come out as transgender?

At the same time I think which changing rooms and toilets should they use when they appear male (but bio female) and female (but bio male)? I watch Blaire White and have read /seen interviews with Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley but haven't seen anything where they discuss this. Which do they use?

Then of course there is the issue of using a surrogate - not something I'd ever thought deeply about before the thread on here about it, but that's a separate issue. This post is really to ask for help to square the circle - it really doesn't seem we can differentiate between people with a GRC who do 'pass' and those with paraphilias but it seems unfair to the transgender people who do just want to get on with their lives.

I'm on my phone and I had to choose the desktop view in Chrome before I could see them.

Why do some posters here seem offended by surrogacy? And why call it paying for babies? In many countries including mine it’s against the law to pay a surrogate so all surrogacy is done for no monetary exchange. As a woman who has birthed children, I would never dream of judging someone who used a surrogate to bring a child into the world. Would you be equally judgemental of someone who carried a child for an infertile friend?

Thanks CrossPurposes I will persevere with it - always interested to see how well the puff-piece-propagandists are doing!

Are you new here?

there is an almost 1000 post thread on surrogacy a few posts below this one that sets out all the issues.

This is what TRAs have always relied upon - furthering their cause by using certain individuals who, at least initially, appear more sympathetic but knowing full well the aim is to break down boundaries and gain access to women’s spaces to those who males who have much less appealing characters, like the piss protesters and many others, to males with fetishes and those males who definitely do present a physical risk to women and girls.

I agree with GreenWhiteViolet who said Women's spaces aren't a reward for men who are nice, men who don't say hateful things about women, or men who look feminine enough that some people might not realise that they're men.

That way lies the slippery slope of 'but what about me? why are you saying I'm not good enough to be in women's spaces? don't exclude me!' from other transwomen.

Women's spaces are for women.

I would also add we would be mad to allow admittance based on who superficially passes as the opposite sex.

Passing is based on deception and concerted effort to deceive. I think it fundamentally unhealthy to write that into society. Sex matters.

Many people have to cope with visible disabilities, visible mental health problems etc. Its difficult. Life is difficult. Transgender people need to own that they are transgender, as others must come to terms with who we are. Women shouldn’t be put at risk just to smooth the way for some males.

We had an important social contract about single sex toilets and spaces. It’s incredible really given how many laws we have to create to stop so much other harmful and selfish behaviour, yet toilets had been ‘policed’ by nothing other than respect and being shown up in front of your peers if found to be contravening boundaries. That’s really powerful and women had that power as well as men. Yet now we have to legislate to protect these singles sex spaces because respect and decency has broken down to this extent. I think this is society at a very low ebb and nothing to be proud of.

They haven’t had kids though, have they? They have got ( ?paid) some other woman to have a baby for them to play with.

The maternity section doesn’t make any sense. They are saying Ireland but if it’s the Republic then Laura the surrogate is the registered mother. I would assume they would of said NI if they meant the North. As far as I am aware there is still only one designated visitor allowed per patient in the maternity hospitals (frequently comes up on pregnancy related groups) and why would Hannah need a private room? Unless they meant that Laura the surrogate got the private room. Private rooms cost lots of money, however since Covid they are being used for infection control so even private patients aren’t getting them. Majority of Irish maternity hospitals are old and not fit for purpose the private rooms are single occupancy and only rooms available to hospital for infection control.
Either story isn’t 100% accurate or there was special treatment involved in this case.

My husband’s lovely: treats me with respect, helps old ladies across the road, does most of the housework, is kind to animals. Why not let him into women’s spaces too, since he’s one of the nice ones?

Do you see the flaw in this approach yet?

This makes me extremely uncomfortable. The male bodied person will no doubt accompany the daughters into toilets and changing rooms (as they are presenting in stereotypes associated with females.) Women and girls who want/need single sex provision will just be expected to shut up. It's not right that all women and girls have to accommodate males who feel like women.

Altruistic surrogacy for a friend is always the face of surrogacy. That's not even what this couple did if I recall.

Surrogacy ranges from sister carrying baby niece to ageing couple hiring poor Eastern European mother.

Surrogacy is an absolute minefield of issues at all levels, and you're not the only one who bought into the idea initially.

I’m sick of this shit

what does ‘feeling like a woman’ actually mean? Feelings are entirely subjective

Lets deal with objective reality.

There are 2 bodies male & female. Males belong in males spaces. Females belong in female spaces.

no exceptions for frills, lipstick, high heels, girly dresses or feelings.

It's total self-absorption.

The conceited arrogance of a someone unable and unwilling to see anything outside the narrow spectrum of their own existence and desire to be validated.

Women on a ward, their privacy, dignity and desire to be in a female environment wholly unconsidered by this male bodied individual because they believe their right to validation trumps any and all rights of these women.

Pretending to be 'frightened' of these vulnerable women is disingenuous to the core.

Of course transsexuals shouldn't have children. How heartbreaking for a baby who longs for its mother to be given to a man. And how desperately weird and confusing to be brought up being told your mother is your father and vice versa.

Lots of fundamentalist Christians are genuinely lovely people. I know quite a few. No beef with them believing whatever they believe, but I don't want my children being taught creationism, nor Creationist beliefs being accepted as the law while my (absence) of belief is denigrated, shunned and 'cancelled'.

People can live as they want. It only becomes an issue when reality - Jake is female sex and Hannah is male sex - butt up against the rights of others based on their sex.

Sport is a prime example - why should female athletes lose their rights to safe and fair sport because a male sex person wishes to live their life as though they were female?

Passing can never be the criteria for entry to single sex facilities because who will judge if someone passes enough or not? And it’s discriminatory against trans people who don’t pass. Third spaces, single cubicle unisex running alongside single sex are the obvious solution.

Nope. Not new here. Just asking a question in response to posts in this specific thread.

Thanks for responding in a respectful way. I guess I’m just speaking from my own experience and those of my close circle of family and friends but yes, I can see now the situation can be exploited. But not always.

I posted a thread earlier about some of these things from my perspective (as a trans man)

In regards to hospitals, those requiring medical attention should receive it in an appropriate way.
The surrogate may have required or paid for a private room, and one or both or the other individuals may have been allowed to be present,
but Hannah needing a room just doesn’t tally, so I wouldn’t waste time trying to square that in your mind. Labour wards are for people in labour, and a trans women cannot be in labour.

i believe anyone should have the option to become a parent, but these individuals shouldn’t be getting any more or less than any other person who uses a surrogate, regardless of the reason.

Sports are sexed for a reason.
There are sports where men and women compete equally and against each other,
denting transgender individuals the opportunity to participate to compete against those in their squires gender isn’t transphobic or discrimination, it’s equality.
Men are typically capable of being stronger than women so anyone biologically male whether trans or otherwise would be at an unfair advantage.

in regard to toilets, changing facilities etc
a third space is really the only option.
self contained changing rooms/toilets where anyone can use the facilities privately would work for anyone regardless of sex or gender identity.
most toilets and changing rooms will have a disabled option,
if these were just labelled as ‘accessible rather than disabled there would be no issue.

Plenty or trans people are genuine lovely people who want to, and should be allowed to just live their lives,
IF they aren’t encroaching on others and taking away their right to safety.

That being said, if these individuals just wanted to get on with their lives quietly, they wouldn’t be giving interviews and appearing in a documentary

Men, women and trans people get in to relationships, have children (in a variety of ways) and don’t feel the need to tell the world about it.

I think they seem a really nice pair.

What's nice about them?

They also do talks for businesses about being transgender.

Before lockdown so 2018/2019 did presentations as part of my companies LGBT awareness months. It was at the time they were looking for a surrogate and doing lots of media and awareness about that.

I couldn’t go as I was offsite both times, otherwise I would have.

But I’d be surprised if my company was the only one. There is possibly some kind of circuit.

Soz!

Surrogacy is the second biggest topic on the board after the clash between women’s and trans rights so I was confused as to why you were surprised that the thread has an anti surrogacy response.

loads of great resources, both national and international are shared regularly.

stopsurrogacynowuk.org

Women's spaces aren't a reward for men who are nice, men who don't say hateful things about women, or men who look feminine enough that some people might not realise that they're men.

In a nutshell.

Once you start on the 'well this one's lovely and sweet and only wants to be included so awwww be nice' - there is no way to say yes to that one, and no to another, if it's yes to any of them at all it's yes to Yaniv and White and any male who wishes to.

Besides, I'd like you to meet my lovely and sweet friends who are female and Muslim, Jewish, Gypsy Roma, have Autism, have trauma and PTSD, who have a history of CSA/DV/DA, they'd like to be included too please. They cannot use a mixed sex space. Why should females lose access to any space because the female space is now oriented around the wishes and needs of male people who don't want to use the male facilities? And that's before I start on the many, many females who just want privacy, dignity and not to be expected to undress and cope with the presence of a male in vulnerable spaces, and would rather not use a space at all than do this. Why is a male person's feelings and right to choice more important than female equality of access?

There is no way to square this circle without fundamentally believing that male people are more important and valuable than female ones, and that male choice does matter more than female feelings, choices, needs, experiences, access, equality and safety. Which is why females are being sexually assaulted in prisons: they are a resource that male prisoners are apparently entitled to and now have a pathway to access at will. (The female prisoners' feelings and will about this is apparently not important.)

It all starts with the one sweet harmless individual and sentimental, unthinking, very naiive, oh bless.....

As Hannah is male, there is no route to ‘motherhood’ that Hannah can take. Hannah is not the biological parent to either of the children. The most honest claim Hannah can have is that they are now a parent to 2 children. Jake can claim to be the biological mother as it was Jake’s eggs that were used.

They do stuff aimed at kids/teens too.

Patrons of Mermaids: mermaidsuk.org.uk/patrons

and are listed on a number of ‘speakers for hire’ websites.

seems to me they want to quietly get on with their lives in the same way Prince Harry and Duchess Megan do!

Bit more to back up my assertions:

Jake makes films about transgender topics, sometimes starring Hannah and Jakeself:
vimeo.com/jakegraf

and the promotional sites abound (screen shot of Google search)

Perfectly normal behaviour for an actor with an IMDB page (dare not go back for the link as Mumsnet reloads and wipes my draft, hence the triple post!) but weird for a couple who claim to be completely normal and just want to fade into the background.