Transgender Couple with Children making me rethink

[IloveHolby]

This link was in Glinner's twitter this morning www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11190271/Meet-mum-dad-whove-swapped-gender-just-second-child.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#reader-comments

Seem like a lovely couple, I'm still trying to square a circle in my head - I absolutely think Self-ID opens up women to risk from men who have paraphilias and that sex does matter, but I have empathy for transpeople who just want to get on with their lives.

A few things came up for me in this article - the hospital ward; why would
Hannah Graf need to be on a ward when Hannah was not the one who gave birth? Probably not really relevant but I'm curious about that. I know that Debbie Hayton has said she (has GRC so I'm using she) is given a private room, and I'm pretty sure Debbie has had SRS but doesn't feel she should be on female ward.

Sport - Hannah says Hannah doesn't feel comfortable going to play sports because of the current furore - this raises my anger actually, along with the TWAW, TMAM t-shirts - they are public figures as transgender, they acknowledge they are different in this respect. Why can't people be proud of their difference and their transgender status? Hannah went through male puberty, are there are non-competitive sports Hannah could participate in without having to come out as transgender?

At the same time I think which changing rooms and toilets should they use when they appear male (but bio female) and female (but bio male)? I watch Blaire White and have read /seen interviews with Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley but haven't seen anything where they discuss this. Which do they use?

Then of course there is the issue of using a surrogate - not something I'd ever thought deeply about before the thread on here about it, but that's a separate issue. This post is really to ask for help to square the circle - it really doesn't seem we can differentiate between people with a GRC who do 'pass' and those with paraphilias but it seems unfair to the transgender people who do just want to get on with their lives.

m.imdb.com/name/nm4261422/

I also think there's this ongoing idea that identifying as "changing" to be the opposite sex is a real thing – but there is no evidence that it is anything but cultural. In essence, other than the way society responds to it, it's no different from identifying as a different race, age, as having a disability when you haven't, etc.

I think people should be free to believe what they like and not be persecuted for how they want to think of themselves, dress etc but I reserve the right to say no, if you are not a woman you cannot become one.

If it was a lovely white person who was "successfully" reinventing themselves as black with convincing surgery and skin treatments, would that be OK and we should all go out of our way to accept they're black – especially black people who should make space for them in their organisations, awards etc?

What about a lovely 40-yo bloke who identifies as a child?

Or a lovely able-bodied, healthy adult who wants to identify as disabled, use a wheelchair and imitate a disability such as cerebral palsy? What if they were really convincing and good at it?

It's still really offensive to the group whose actual real, physical identity is being appropriated and imitated, and for whom it is not a choice. I feel the same about people claiming to "be" the sex they are not – especially when a male is claiming to be my sex, which is the less advantaged sex and needs protections.

Identify as trans if you want, of course but own it, accept you haven't changed sex and it's rude to expect people to act as if you have.

Re. my previous post I think, with these two, the rule has been proved, it still holds.

As far as I remember, aren't these two the PR arm of transgenderism? I seem to remember their wedding in the papers, their decision to have children, the surrogacy issue, all of it.

And was it these two, or fox an owl, who made a film with the transwoman being pushed to the floor by a transman ?

Also, in the back of my mind, didn't they decide to be all 'progressive', and have Jake be the stay at home parent? Or take care of the bulk of the child caring?

vimeo.com/496022551

Film on their surrogacy.

Indeed they seem like a thoroughly everyday couple in many ways.

But I will say that the zoom call between the surrogate mother and Jake and Hannah was unexpectedly hard to watch. The baby was calling and reaching for her mother.

Yes she's still biologically male, but she's also just quietly going about her business
So quietly it is in newspapers and on TV. I ways find when I want a quiet life it's best to ring the newspapers to get an article or two.

No, I'm past thinking about the odd nice person. This isn't about individuals, lots of us will know a nice John who is now Janet. We can't have privacy and dignity based on guessing if someone is nice.

I really hope it's not true that Hannah had a private room on the labour ward, though reading the guidance from obstetrics and gynecology that I recently completed for the consultation (now closed but still worth a read as it outlines all the surgeries and hormones trans people can have), it would not surprise me. After all they suggested it would be gender affirming to give men who say they are women mammograms even though the risk if breast cancer us much lower. The whole document even puts transwomen before transmen when talking about them both.
www.rcog.org.uk/news/draft-guideline-on-the-care-of-trans-and-gender-diverse-people-within-obstetrics-and-gynaecology-opens-for-consultation/

My first baby died so I had a private room for a couple of days with my second baby can you imagine telling a mother like me sorry we've no private rooms as the nice transwoman is in a private room with a surrogate giving birth!

Female, I'm so sorry for your loss.

I can't think of anyone prepared to use a surrogate as "nice" no matter how lovely the photographs are.

Its a leap I just can't make.

Yes, me too, Female

I cannot imagine the pain of losing a baby, and how scary it must’ve been to be back in hospital for the birth of your lost baby’s sibling

The hospital bit - presumably this is talking about postnatal? If they were there for the actual delivery they'd have been in a delivery room where whoever the mum wants is allowed anyway.

The baby needs to be there so I guess the adoptive parent is there to look after the baby. And fair play to them not putting a male adoptive parent in the ward with postnatal mums. There must be other circumstances where a baby only has a male caregiver. What would they do with a dad if mum was incapacitated after childbirth e.g. in ICU? I don't think it would be a great help to the mums in the ward if the caregiver who is female but might reasonably be taken for male was in the open ward either.

I don't like surrogacy, similar to prostitution I think the fact a small number of women manage to do it in a controlled way with an outcome that they are personally happy with does not justify making it legal because the inevitable outcome is poor women being exploited. And I don't think it's fair to the baby, separating a newborn baby from its mum should be a last resort.

But given the situation has arisen of a planned adoption at birth this seems to me like a reasonable use of 3rd space. Alternative would be taking up a nurse or midwife's time taking care of the newborn until it is ready to be discharged, and would still require use of a bed space, so for NHS allowing the adoptive parent in and finding a private space seems a reasonable solution.

Private rooms are used for all sorts of things depending on availability, not just tragic situations. You can often pay to have one if available. I'm sure they kept an eye on having space available in an emergency and overall capacity.

I think there is a massive difference between disliking the people and disliking the ideology. I don't dislike trans people at all. Jake and Hannah seem nice. I just don't like the current form of gender ideology as I think it is harmful.

Same as I don't particularly like organised religion. That doesn't mean I dislike my Christian and Muslim friends. They are all nice people. I also accept that religion might be helpful to them personally. But I'd be upset if religion was being taught to my children as fact.

But given the situation has arisen of a planned adoption at birth this seems to me like a reasonable use of 3rd space. Alternative would be taking up a nurse or midwife's time taking care of the newborn until it is ready to be discharged, and would still require use of a bed space, so for NHS allowing the adoptive parent in and finding a private space seems a reasonable solution.

I’m not disagreeing with you on a practical note but did want to point out that planned adoption at birth wouldn’t be available to them (or anyone else) in England, where they actually live.

Legally everything goes through social services and birth parents do not meet prospective adoptive parents (as mum
has a right to change her mind right up until paperwork is signed and knowing a prospective adopter could result in coercion or bribery, and if it’s an adoption due to mum’s circumstances being unsafe for the child, there is due process to follow through the court and the newborn will be with a foster carer for a short period before the adoption takes place).

so this is a surrogacy only situation and not really comparable to adoption at all.

(I’m not at all implying that J&H have broken any laws, btw, just pointing out that the laws for surrogacy have great wide loopholes compared to adoption and baby buyers/commissioners get to impose themselves in hospitals in a manner that adopters do not)

Hannah incredulous that she can't do something as routine and normal as joining a football team. Such a routine and normal leisure activity for an early middle aged woman with two toddler/babies and a job in the city.

I know that Debbie Hayton has said she (has GRC so I'm using she)
Hayton doesn't have a GRC and has stated Hayton has no intention of applying for one.

Early middle aged at 35?! I'm 32 soon 😭 I'm young right? RIGHT?!

Early middle aged at 35?! I'm 32 soon 😭 I'm young right? RIGHT?!

Everyone on MN thinks 'young' lasts well into your 70s, so you are fine.

What is the deal with military men becoming transwomen? I don't get it but is so common.

Back in the old days a trans person would use the woman's loos and we'd all indulge the delusion they were women and pretend we hadn't noticed. But they were there because we, the females allowed it. And there was a lot of sympathy and understanding for people who were just trying to live as they felt comfortable.
The problem today is that certain males now feel they have a God given right to be wherever they choose regardless of how women feel. And that puts us at risk because we no longer have the right of refusal.

Re the family in that article, 'nice' is subjective. They may be personally likeable and I respect their right to present themselves to the world as they feel happiest. But, I think it will mess with the children's heads to say Jake is their father. Jake is their biological mother. Iirc Hannah isn't biologically related, the embryos were Jakes from pre transition. And some other woman altogether carried and gave birth. I think this is denying the children a fundamental truth about who is their mother and who is father. To me it's selfish. I'm also not in favour of surrogacy - it doesn't centre children, it's about putting poorer/vulnerable women at risk to indulge adult wants.

My main problem with surrogacy is it isn't in the best interests of the child.

In fact the child's interests don't seem to be considered.

They are taken away from their biological mother.

When people adopt or foster children, there is recognition that this is a remedy for a difficult situation i.e. for whatever reason the child can't stay with their birth parent/s. The trauma of this separation is recognised. And adopting/foster parents need to go through a pretty thorough assessment/vetting/training process. There doesn't seem to be any such process for receiving a child via surrogacy.

Also the nomenclature is wrong. They call the biological mother the "surrogate", whereas she is the actual/biological mother who has birthed the child - the ones that receive the child are the surrogates.

Surrogate (definition): a substitute, especially a person deputizing for another in a specific role or office;
someone or something that replaces or is used instead of someone or something else; one appointed to act in place of another.

The receiving parents are the ones acting as surrogates.

Yeah.. playing the victim card…

so frightened of women this poor fragile feminine… (drums please) FORMER SOLDIER!

Toilets are simple ... label the disabled one "individual" and take the radar key off. This would benefit families too, where small girls are taken into the male toilets by Dad, and exposed to sights which - if they saw in the local park - would be reported to police.

Any woman who felt passionate about the fact that there might be a biological male in the female toilets can go "individual", and I suspect that the vast majority of trans females would have no particular reason to assert their "right" to enter the female toilets and would use individual too out of respect to others, rather than being forced to use a toilet they don't feel comfortable in. And - in new builds/renovations - move towards the model in most branches of Costa, where toilets are individual rooms rather than "unisex" shared spaces. Everyone gets to go to the toilet in peace.

Or is that just too simple?

I like women only loos. Men tend to piss all over the place and not clear up! So while I'm in favour of individual cubicles, I'd still like some reserved for women only

I just had a post deleted, was it because I called a man a man? We can discuss but we can’t dismiss the tenets of the new region?

if I say Jesus was not the son of god will it be deleted too?

so, let me repost. If Jesus, with his long hair and feminine manners and dress, would feel entitled to disturb the privacy of women in labour and take a bed from them, that would disqualify him from ever being called “nice” . no matter how “nice” he looks in pictures.

what adoptive mothers have you ever heard of cosplaying at being in labour and taking beds from women in labour when receiving their adopted children?! Ever, in the history of mankind?

but Jesus… Jesus is Jesus. All hail the lord.