Transgender Couple with Children making me rethink

[IloveHolby]

This link was in Glinner's twitter this morning www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11190271/Meet-mum-dad-whove-swapped-gender-just-second-child.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#reader-comments

Seem like a lovely couple, I'm still trying to square a circle in my head - I absolutely think Self-ID opens up women to risk from men who have paraphilias and that sex does matter, but I have empathy for transpeople who just want to get on with their lives.

A few things came up for me in this article - the hospital ward; why would
Hannah Graf need to be on a ward when Hannah was not the one who gave birth? Probably not really relevant but I'm curious about that. I know that Debbie Hayton has said she (has GRC so I'm using she) is given a private room, and I'm pretty sure Debbie has had SRS but doesn't feel she should be on female ward.

Sport - Hannah says Hannah doesn't feel comfortable going to play sports because of the current furore - this raises my anger actually, along with the TWAW, TMAM t-shirts - they are public figures as transgender, they acknowledge they are different in this respect. Why can't people be proud of their difference and their transgender status? Hannah went through male puberty, are there are non-competitive sports Hannah could participate in without having to come out as transgender?

At the same time I think which changing rooms and toilets should they use when they appear male (but bio female) and female (but bio male)? I watch Blaire White and have read /seen interviews with Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley but haven't seen anything where they discuss this. Which do they use?

Then of course there is the issue of using a surrogate - not something I'd ever thought deeply about before the thread on here about it, but that's a separate issue. This post is really to ask for help to square the circle - it really doesn't seem we can differentiate between people with a GRC who do 'pass' and those with paraphilias but it seems unfair to the transgender people who do just want to get on with their lives.

Why not just say the Earth is flat, to appease flat earthers? After all it’s nothing to you is it, just to say the Earth is flat? So why not just do it?

@Georgeskitchen some of us are mothers who have carried, birthed, fed, and raised people from babies. As such, have developed an understanding of the responsibilities and profound priviledge it is to be able to conceived and bring up another human being. This is not something to be bought and sold. Babies, children, adults, need their mothers. Mothers are people who have the experience to judge quite frankly.

Good for Miranda and Fionne. Its such a shame that the considerable influence & friends in high places enjoyed by the trans lobby isn't spent on this kind of activism.

Transwomen think they pass because females are socialised to be polite, and to appease males. Trauma victims are liable to freeze or fawn in the unwanted presence of a male when they're vulnerable.

The people who claim to support trans people should be more upfront about this.

Isn't it better, for the trans individual, for people to think

"Oh that's Judy, she's lovely, she's a transwoman, I know because she told me /uses the men's loos /plays rugby on Saturday with my boyfriend."

Rather than

"I think Judy is a transwoman? I know she's pretty, but she definitely has hips like a man and has big hands stares. I suppose it doesn't matter, she seems nice. Only when she was playing against me last weekend, it was really hard - I couldn't get past her and I couldn't keep up. I had no chance! I feel weird using the loo at the same time. I'm sure she's not a threat to me, she's probably into men anyway right? But I've got my period and my mooncup is messy waits outside for Judy to leave toilets."

Women's spaces aren't a reward for men who are nice, men who don't say hateful things about women, or men who look feminine enough that some people might not realise that they're men.

That way lies the slippery slope of 'but what about me? why are you saying I'm not good enough to be in women's spaces? don't exclude me!' from other transwomen.

Women's spaces are for women.

I watched a TV documentary about this couple a while back. They came across as a really nice couple who just wanted a quiet life

If you want a quiet life, announcing the birth of your surrogate babies in the Daily Mail is not the way to do it. Neither is appearing on various TV shows and having our own website and appearing at the opening of every envelope vaguley related to trans rights.

Pretty much the opposite of seeking a quiet life, in fact.

It would probably be easier if we understood men's facilities as open

I'm sure there are plenty of men who would be unhappy with you opening their spaces up to everyone.

How long before either of those children discover that they have been born in the ‘wrong’ body? I believe the lowest recognition and affirmation so far is two years old. I’m sure Hannah could beat that if she makes an effort.

I still think all of the trans issues would be less of an issue if we binned the male and female stereotypes. That picture with the woman in her army gear in front of all the shoes - what is that trying to say?! Look I wear army stuff but I’m definitely a women because I have loads of high heels?! It’s just so overly simplified, narrow minded and sad.

Quite. It's that sense of entitlement, isn't it? Thinking you're more deserving than other people and have the right to take away resources from a woman who's just given birth and might actually need a private room.

I have no patience with any of it. There was a lot of guff in the article about how frightened Hannah (ex-army) is and how Hannah is at risk of violence because of the mean old Terfs. Is Hannah really claiming that radical feminists are going round committing violent acts against trans women? It's just nonsense and attention-seeking.

I think this couple are an example of the exceptions that prove (test) the rule. They seem nice (in a Daily Mail puff piece). Apparently, just want to live a quiet life (in a Daily Mail article, an article in the Times and a TV documentary!). I don't understand why Hannah needed to be in the hospital other than as a visitor. I admit, this does make me struggle with the fact that tw should stay out of women's spaces. I wonder if that is the reason for this piece and if we'll see more, about 'socially acceptable' transpeople. It is good to have it confirmed that they do seem to exist, that they're not all (or even mostly) pervy misogynists.

There was a comment I liked, something along the lines, 'they're just a heterosexual couple with extra steps'.

I'm positive that Debbie Hayton wrote an article several months ago that tw definitely should stay out of women's loos. I'll see if I can find it. But then I think they tweeted about staying in London at the YWCA!

I'm sure you're right, but a lot of those men are just fine with the idea of womens spaces being open to everyone.

Frankly, that would be their problem.

The phrase about post partum women being "emboldened to kick up a fuss" about a male who has purchased a baby and wants to sit in a maternity ward tells you everything you need to know about this 'lovely' couple. Quiet life would be out of the press. They are being feted as some sort of reasonable ambassadors but it doesn't take much to see what a crock this all is. Hannah was frightened of the mean women in their birthing beds holding vulnerable newborns, was Hannah the ex army media darling?

I also disagree with them bringing an innocent child into a situation where both parents obviously have complex issues.

Post transition plenty of sufferers find their GD resolved. To suggest transsexuals shouldn't have kids is not on.

Lots of people with complex issues have kids quite successfully.

Do they? Despite the socialist utopia of some people’s imaginings and phrases such as ‘all you need is love’, all kids really want is to feel normal and fit in. Very few kids will be ‘proud’ of their unconventional set ups although it might be drilled into them to say that.

I remember them from their first child's birth documentary. Something about them rubbed me the wrong way.

Just because they aren't screaming about terfs doesn't make them lovely. They still engage in surrogacy and promote mermaids for a start.

There are nice trans people who do just went to get on with life, and accept reality. I'm not sure these two are an example of that.

I'm not sure that's true. I think most of the men who want to open up single sex spaces wouldn't care- because they aren't at (physical) risk from women in those spaces.

Still I know that most men would not want that simply for privacy reasons. Which is why gay men are one of the groups that is really starting to notice and complain- they have single sex spaces involving nudity which are being affected first.

It won't affect most men's spaces yet because a transman who presents as female (which many do) won't like the response they get from men.

Remember in exactly how vulnerable you were having just given birth. Possibly torn and stiched, definitely bleeding, suffering after pains as the uterus contracted. 'Baby blues' as the hormones swung about turn. Engorged breasts as the milk came in. Waddling to the loo with a mattress between your legs and in fear of the impact of urine on your tears and grazes or the pressure of a poo and possible piles. Self consciously getting your breasts out to try and feed with all the struggle that involved. No sleep and possibly none for days due to labour. And then there are those who've had c-sections - major surgery - possibly still on catheters and pain pumps unable to get out of bed. And others frantic with worry with their baby in nicu. Others with abusive partners or difgicult living situations wondering how they will keep their baby safe. All incredibly vulnerable.

And a man says he is 'frightened' of them! If he is frightened of anything it is the reality of being a woman and the recognition that it is something a man could never be.

Is this just happening for me?

usually when the DM close comments (due to the article no longer being current and not worth the resources to moderate) you can still read the old ones…

I can’t find any trace of the 177. Could be a glitch, I suppose…

Do they?

Yes, they do. You need only read the relevant research or speak to transsexuals. I think transition is a very unsatisfactory treatment and am hugely bothered by it being pushed on young girls where GD is a secondary issue but it does work in some cases.

Despite the socialist utopia of some people’s imaginings and phrases such as ‘all you need is love’, all kids really want is to feel normal and fit in.

That's a different issue. I'm not saying that couple aren't attention seeking twonks setting their kids up for trouble; merely that it isn't OK to say all transsexuals shouldn't have kids any more than all people with MH issues (for example).

I'm outraged that they 'just want to get on with their lives' and some bastard has made a documentary about them and written a newspaper article. Or several.

I know. I don't know why it is so hard to understand. If you remove yourself entirely from social norms it is hardly surprising that people push back, will not rush to accommodate you. But somehow being trans is an exception to that!

That's why the Section 28 comparator is so bloody offensive. Gay rights removed nothing from any other cohort. Gay rights simply seek to ensure equal treatment, protection against discrimination because of sexuality.

Trans rights must, by definition, include overriding the rights of other cohorts, male and female. And that clash of PCs cannot simply be forgotten, derided, hidden, denied or simply taken for granted.

All I’m asking for is dignity.

That's a perfectly reasonable expectation in a civilised society but it should not come at the expense of women's dignity.

I’m more fearful walking down Clapham High Street than I felt in Helmand Province (Afghanistan).

I can't take this kind of hyperbolic bullshit seriously.

I am very sympathetic to transsexuals and I feel very sorry for them that activists are campaigning in their name and creating so much hostility. However the battle for women's rights is more important to me, I will not compromise. Any concessions women make for this tiny group of people will be abused by those with a different agenda, women are not to blame for that.

I think it's worth remembering that women were forced to compromise by the GRA in 2004 because we were not consulted. Many of us, myself included thought the numbers were so tiny we could live with it and now here we are in 2022 with a biological male taking up a bed on a maternity ward.

I wish this couple and their family all the very best but I will never accept it is OK for the feelings of a man to trump the needs of women.

I've read this too and found myself asking the question, what about those who 'pass'?

As a side note I find it really interesting that this heterosexual couple have both essentially adopted (or swapped) stereotypes of man and woman. The TM has short hair and masc clothing, TW has long hair and dress. It's like swapping one set of stereotypes for another.

Reading H Joyce book it used to be that 'sex changes' we're only offered to those they thought would pass and many men asking for surgery would be declined. But now, you can't do that, so the idea of those not passing being disallowed women-only spaces would be discriminatory right?

I know it isn't the done thing to mention a DHs response but...

DH walked passed as I was looking at the picture and his response was "Is that a man? Look at the forearms and hands of that woman!"

Clothes do not maketh the man, or the woman, it seems.

Lots of food for thought on here - thank you everyone. I can see now that the article in the Mail is just a piece of propaganda - "look at this lovely couple, they wouldn't want to harm anyone" (Be Kind!) - yes @TastefulRainbowUnicorn definitely a guilt trip. @Thelnebriati I am GC but also liberal in that I want people to be able to live their lives as they wish as long as they aren't hurting anyone (and keep their bloody kinks to themselves and away from children!). Seeing this article had the intended effect on me in that it triggered the 'be kind' response in me, and how can we do this (as in accommodate these transpeople who just want to live their lives and cause no harm)? I am also veering towards the GRA being abolished. UK was the only country to legalise GRC without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

There is no way of knowing which men are no risk and those who are a risk, so the only logical answer is to separate by sex and for trans people to campaign for 3rd spaces. This has clarified things for me again.

@Lovelyricepudding or just play a sport which has mixed teams, or something like aerobics, going to the gym, swimming etc - all of my 'sports' (fitness classes) are mixed. Badminton= mixed, Tennis= mixed.

I'm actually quite angry with the article now as it really doesn't put across a balanced view of the issues and how women are impacted. It gave me the cognitive dissonance I began feeling 'oh maybe I'm wrong, how can we 'be kind' but also feeling BUT WHY DOES HANNAH NEED TO BE IN HOSPITAL WTF!

I have always thought that we wouldn't necessarily notice if a very feminine looking transwoman was using the toilet or changing rooms, and that those with gender dysphoria wouldn't want to show off their genitals anyway so would use a private cubicle wherever possible. I've read loads of threads on here though and realise it has to be a strict sex segregation policy to make facilities inclusive to women from all religions.

Thanks for the links @TheClogLady I will read them later. I did come across this today by Debbie Hayton debbiehayton.com/2022/07/18/the-transgender-debate-sport-toilets-and-debbie-hayton/. Debbie doesn't use the men's or women's but the separate (probably disabled) toilets in her school.