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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chameber) Thread 2

819 replies

nauticant · 13/09/2022 11:15

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (?? September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (?? September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (?? September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - Not yet available
Dr Belinda Bell: Not yet available
Beverley Jackson: Not yet available
Kate Harris: Not yet available
Eileen Gallagher: Not yet available

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Datun · 13/09/2022 13:04

2fallsfromSSA · 13/09/2022 13:02

KM - I will ask again, do you disagree that it is unreasonable for an LGBA charity to worry about what is happening to lesbian girls?
BB - it is too specialised and technical for them.

I just don't know where to start with this testimony. I wonder how familiar the judge is with this whole area, I can imagine her or him sitting with a look of utter bewilderment at the witnesses so far.

Same.

although, it does tie in with Stonewall claiming that homosexuality is a medical term.

2fallsfromSSA · 13/09/2022 13:07

Yes, there is a theme here. Can you imagine the cross group strategy meeting?

2fallsfromSSA · 13/09/2022 13:09

As always I wonder at the level of cognitive dissonance these people are prepared to embrace.

CentaureaCyanus · 13/09/2022 13:11

They are the marketing arm for the sex change pharmaceutical industry.

Wonder if that's what's meant by social entrepreneurship.

WallaceinAnderland · 13/09/2022 13:11

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/09/2022 12:59

I need to go and scream into a pillow during the break.

I'm watching with my earmuffs headphones on and subjecting DH to random outbursts as he is wfh.

These are the people who brought this case to court. Why have they no evidence or witnesses with any knowledge? It's astonishing. They are acting as if they are defending, not attacking (or whatever the legal term is for it). They've got nothing and they look stupid and inept

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 13:11

BB - it is too specialised and technical for them

She's trying to argue that Mermaids are gatekeepers of a subject so complicated and specialised and technical that she can't comment on it, and also claiming that nobody else should comment on it?

She's guarding that absence of knowledge very fiercely.

It's like a priest insisting that god moves in mysterious ways and its heresy to question it.

nauticant · 13/09/2022 13:15

"... out of the womb with[out] a sex" is going down great on twitter:

twitter.com/search?q=%22out%20of%20the%20womb%20with%20a%20sex%22&src=typed_query&f=live

OP posts:
Snippie · 13/09/2022 13:19

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Previously banned poster.

NecessaryScene · 13/09/2022 13:19

They are acting as if they are defending, not attacking (or whatever the legal term is for it).

Well, that is in part because they're being cross-examined. Their "attack" is in their witness statements.

This livetweet format where we mainly discuss the courtroom proceedings is a bit skewed, as the judges will also be considering those statements.

It would be useful if anyone could extract juicy highlights from them.

For example, Paul Roberts presented evidence of LGB Alliance's nefariousness:

28. Indeed, LGB Alliance sometimes goes out of its way to avoid using the word "trans" at all.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2022 13:23

Hi we are Mermaids.

We are here to support parents and children who identify as trans. We are here to act in their best interests. Except we can't be bothered to properly read a significant report into medical transition at the Tavistock and how there are major concerns over safeguarding and not exploring other emotional concerns.

This is despite us sending lots of letters and emails to the Tavistock over the years to pressure the institution into having a singluar approach to transition in which over issues should absoluetely not be explored 'because transphobic'. Cos we obviously knew better than all the medical experts.

Now we get to shout how we are not experts. When previously we were pitching ourselves as experts in the emotional wellbeing of 'trans children'.

We are now making the point that we don't understand statistics. Nor do we recognise the law in terms of sex based rights and the rights of homosexuals. Nope. We are here to eliminate sex as a concept and replace it completely with gender on an ideological basis.

Because our ideological beliefs are much more important that us actually having a fucking clue about whether transitioning is in the best interests of all children. We believe that all children who identify as trans or all children who have parents who believe they are trans should be just taken at complete face value and to hell with whether the process might be harmful or disportionately be affecting gay and bisexual children, autistic children or children with a history of trauma. Because none of this matters. It shouldn't be talked about because it doesn't fit with our beliefs.

This is why we are seeking to remove the charitable status of the LGBAlliance. Because we can't be arsed to do our homework and understand how research works and how it might be a bit more complicated than just magically changing sex.

We know that we can not admit we have been pressuring families socially and politically into transing their kids. Because if we do we open ourselves up to a whole world of potential liability and legal responsibility. Funny isn't it, how we are effectively lawyered up in knowing what we really shouldn't be saying.

Yep thats us Mermaids. Who simultaneously claim we are acting in the best interests of all children, yet manage to somehow be negligent and ignorant of key information which they should as an institution be well aware of and able to discuss with parents and children - never mind explain well in court. We are still back at the level of using the intersex gotcha with data void and a total lack of medical understanding (by our own admission).

We are modern day evangelicials who believe rather than research. We need to spread our important message of belief to businesses and individuals to secure funding. We display a conviction in our faith as being infalliable, we target particularly vulnerable individuals, we insist on exclusivity of faith in which dissent or straying from the ideals of the 'one truth faith' is ensured through the encouragment of shunning and explusion from the group, we encourage isolation from others who do not share our opinions, and our very case is about punishing others who we see as a enemy to the faith, we like to try and intimidate and silence those on twitter who are in any way even minimally critical. We recruit by holding people hostage with the threat that they will be at extreme risk of suicide if they do not comply.

Our history is a fantastic lesson in how to be unprofessional and we've had a number of incidents involving data breeches and safeguarding breeches over very sensitive information for young people. We didn't understand that children being encouraged to put trust into adults they didn't know, behind their parents back was not really very smart. Our understanding of data protection law was a bit shit. Yet, despite there being a huge public debate over the Equality Act, we've choosen not to look this up properly and understand it. Yet we are still managing to tow that legal line of not admitting that we have been advising parents and children down the medicalisation route. We have amazing powers of selective understanding of the law.

We haven't grasped about how education is saying its irresponsible to say things like 'trapped in the wrong body' and despite us doing it for ages, we definitely absoluetely have never done this. I guess we can manage to do this by simply maintaining the idea that concept of sex is a fiction.

In no way do we bear any resemblance whatsoever to religious cults. Honest.

This court case is in no way highlighting our utter hypocrisy and a complete lack of quality in our service which those who trust us should expect.

Cos we are Mermaids and we know best. We know better than everyone else. And anyone who disagrees is a bigot who shouldn't be allowed a public or professional role.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2022 13:26

WallaceinAnderland · 13/09/2022 13:11

I'm watching with my earmuffs headphones on and subjecting DH to random outbursts as he is wfh.

These are the people who brought this case to court. Why have they no evidence or witnesses with any knowledge? It's astonishing. They are acting as if they are defending, not attacking (or whatever the legal term is for it). They've got nothing and they look stupid and inept

They live in a parallel world where belief is the most important thing. Not knowledge. They have had enough of experts.

This is nothing new. They really believe in it.

titchy · 13/09/2022 13:28

So missed 'So there' at the end Red!

Emotionalsupportviper · 13/09/2022 13:31

titchy · 13/09/2022 13:28

So missed 'So there' at the end Red!

Red thumbed her nose instead.

Doesn't show up in the post, but I can sense it as a Disturbance in the Force (Farce?) 😬

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/09/2022 13:34

So who are the experts within Mermaids??

I know SG is an IT specialist and this bint is a 'Social Entrepreneur', whatever that is.

Shouldn't it be the case that being appointed to CEO, or Chair, means you have qualifications beyond having a 'trans' child?

Datun · 13/09/2022 13:34

Red spot on. I bet it gets deleted.

ClimbingCancelled · 13/09/2022 13:34

Beowulfa · 13/09/2022 12:56

At least someone at Stonewall had enough brain cells to predict this line of questioning and withdrew their involvement from the case.

Stonewall give Mermaids money from their charitable pot.

They will indeed be right behind this..

web.archive.org/web/20220903014107/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/02/trans-activist-charities-receive-taxpayers-money-loophole/

Datun · 13/09/2022 13:35

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2022 13:26

They live in a parallel world where belief is the most important thing. Not knowledge. They have had enough of experts.

This is nothing new. They really believe in it.

They really do.

IcakethereforeIam · 13/09/2022 13:36

If 'woman' and 'female' are going, I might try out 'bint'. See how it feels.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/09/2022 13:36

Asking for proof is actually heresy with this ideology.

PicturesOfDogs · 13/09/2022 13:36

I’m reading this in awe with the knowledge that it was Mermaids who brought this case to the courts
WTF

ClimbingCancelled · 13/09/2022 13:37

ClimbingCancelled · 13/09/2022 13:34

Stonewall give Mermaids money from their charitable pot.

They will indeed be right behind this..

web.archive.org/web/20220903014107/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/02/trans-activist-charities-receive-taxpayers-money-loophole/

Some interesting text here:

"Mermaids, another transgender charity, received £10,000 in the 2019-20 financial year from a fund administered by UK Youth, a charity which receives hundreds of thousands of pounds each year in government grants and lottery funding.
The charity has been criticised over its campaigning for children to be allowed better access to puberty blockers and other medical options. Mermaids declined to comment and UK Youth did not respond to requests for comment."

and

"Trans activist charities that promote “dangerous” agendas are receiving taxpayers’ money because of a loophole that ministers have now vowed to close.
Controversial groups including Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence are being given grants by other charities that receive government funding, because of a lack of oversight by Whitehall."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/09/2022 13:40

Brilliant post RedToothBrush.

ImherewithBoudica · 13/09/2022 13:40

ImNotAnExpert · 13/09/2022 13:11

BB - it is too specialised and technical for them

She's trying to argue that Mermaids are gatekeepers of a subject so complicated and specialised and technical that she can't comment on it, and also claiming that nobody else should comment on it?

She's guarding that absence of knowledge very fiercely.

It's like a priest insisting that god moves in mysterious ways and its heresy to question it.

This. It's religious mania.

Too much of what is coming out is incoherent burble.

Lesbian gay and bisexual people should not support lesbians, this should be medically qualified people only as they are too specialised and complicated.

How bloody homophobic is that?!!!! So bloody complicated and specialised I need a medic do I? What exactly is so fucking complicated about lesbians all of a sudden?

Imagine her response if it was suggested that trans kids should be medically mediated only and protected from any other form of support or organisation?

ickky · 13/09/2022 13:45

I'm watching with my earmuffs headphones on and subjecting DH to random outbursts as he is wfh

I have also deployed my muffs and keep annoying DP with quotes, he didn't look impressed or particularly interested until the born without a sex quote, that got the rant I was looking for 😅

TheClogLady · 13/09/2022 13:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Previously banned poster.

Did you manage to read the WHOLE tweet?
including the bit where Malcolm describes David Davis as ‘a champion for freedom of expression?’

Or were you too busy rushing over here to make a dick of yourself?

Do you understand that freedom of expression that David Davis champions was and is an absolute necessity for minority groups to be able to campaign for their rights?

and that some principled people stand up for freedom of expression for all, including those they disagree with?

Did you actually participate in the various national discussions that led to equal marriage for same sex partners?

I’m guessing not as if you did you might remember that there were plenty of ACTUAL HOMOSEXUAL PEOPLE who rejected the entire concept:

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22758434

(and yes, some people objected on religious grounds! And some objected on lesbian feminist grounds!)

it’s *having a debate^ about all this, a free and fully expressed debate, that eventually made same sex marriage legal.

Fuck me, the standard of public debate really has plummeted since Twitter was founded.

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