Do you talk about being GC in real life?

[Waiting4baby2]

I feel like Im going mad. I am a left leaning person, only ever read bbc and the guardian news. Generally a ‘live and let live’ sort of person who cares about equality.
I was completely in the dark about policy changes which have taken/ are taking place to put gender ID above sex/ the silencing of women and frankly the child abuse that has been taking place through affirmative care.
Now I’ve started properly looking into it I’m completely in shock at how this has been allowed to happen to women’s rights. Im also gobsmacked at the way the guardian and bbc have been so biased in the matter and failing to air any gender critical views.
I feel like now I’m aware of what’s going on I want my friends and family, particularly female members to know. However, it’s such a layered story to get across and when I have gently mentioned anything I basically get ‘well it’s none of my business, it doesn’t affect me how people want to live’ or ‘I don’t know much about it’ but are clearly disapproving. Just a question is it worth bringing some ideas to light for them or will they get there themselves? I’m feeling quite powerless but know how important this is so in a way feel duty bound to air the alternative view. What can I do?!

Yes, I think the conflation of feminine and female, masculine and male, is what makes me so angry. It’s unbelievably misogynist at root. It’s just yet another way of keeping women - and to a lesser extent, men - in their place.

What a wonderful world it would be if we were just allowed to be.

It’ has shocked and horrified me to see how women are not considered fully human by otherwise intelligent and educated men.

The way I interpret ‘assigned at birth’ is that each sex carries a societal gender role and society as a whole expects us to perform that role from when we are born. So anyone not comfortable with it seeks an alternative. Currently that is trans and/or non binary. I can see how it’s attractive.

But I fundamentally disagree that being trans makes you the same as the opposite sex.

I really, really hope this all evolves and society can be more accepting of gender non conforming people while upholding sex based accommodations where necessary. I am concerned that the - understandable - backlash against TRA’s will mean we never evolve our acceptance of gender non conforming people or even better, abolish gender stereotypes altogether.

That might be why feminists (in my view, being 'gender critical' is a large part of all feminism) noticed the issues with 'genderism' sooner. If you are quite aware that stereotypes are largely arbitrary and imposed, then you are far less likely to see them as being 'innate' or logically connected to sex.

No, unfortunately learnt my lesson from talking about being vegan. It pissed people off.

I'm very cautious, I'm afraid. This is because I work as a freelance in the arts, and a lot of my work comes from informal contacts/recommendations. I can't really afford to not be recommended because of a perception that I'm a terf.

Snails, you may be pleasantly surprised, tbh. Far, far more people are sympathetic with 'gc' ideas than they are with 'genderist' ideas. They may not say so openly, but there is a large and growing network of people who are quietly resisting. You can see on social media most people are not going along with it.

Depends my audience, very open with family and most of my friends. More cautious at work.

"I'm treated as a bigot, assumed that it's the same as homophobia"

This is because homophobia and transphobia are evil siblings.

"if trans people are fine, you can't tell the difference between them and predators".

Imagine if you'd written "if gay people are fine, you can't tell the difference between them and predators", would that be a homophobic statement? Yes, obviously.

"The link to LGB right has really benefitted trans acceptance!!"

It really has, I love the solidarity we have as an LGBT community. It's great that we watch each other's backs.

"And I am concerned about being seen as bigoted".

You've just said you can't tell the difference between trans people and predators! I would not say that out loud because obviously people will conclude that is bigotry because it is.

Yes, we all know that you think lesbians can have penises. 🙄

I don't mention it on Facebook, etc., or to friends I know to be very strong supporters of trans ideology. Otherwise, I talk about it in real life every day with lots of people. Almost everyone close to me is GC.

Does literally anyone read any further once they've read the words "imagine if you'd written..." ?!

Yep. I don’t know anyone who thinks trans activism is anything other than deluded misogynist bullying trying to trap women back into stereotypes while brainwashing children intompremature sexualisation.

Oh maybe one person who likes drag, but she isn’t very bright.

"You've just said you can't tell the difference between trans people and predators! I would not say that out loud because obviously people will conclude that is bigotry because it is."

No it's not. The point is male predators, as you know. Transwomen look like men. No matter what you think about them 'being women' in any sense, you can't deny that physically it's obvious. You can't tell the difference between them and any other men, including those who might be male predators trying to get into women's spaces. And one of many reasons we segregate areas by sex is male predators.

We don't make the statement about gay people, obviously, because gay women who are in women's spaces are unlikely to be a risk. We can't tell the difference between gay and straight women, but we don't care. We can't tell the difference between gay men and straight men, and we don't care either, as none should be in women's spaces. So of course I wouldn't have ever replaced the words with 'gay people', because we don't separate on the basis of sexuality as there is very little danger from mixing people with different sexualities in the way that there is mixing sexes.

But you clearly know all this anyway.

Transwomen look like men.

Transwomen are men, otherwise what are they transitioning from?

Transwomen are just as likely to be predatory as other men: the stats are clear. And why should women try to figure out who is who in a female changing room?

Would be great if yet another thread wasn't derailed into the exact same arguments, no?

"Trans women look like predators" - yes, that's why people think you're a bigot.
That is NOT what @QuattroFromagio said.

I think some people need to work on their reading comprehension.

I’ve spoken to lots of people over the space of two years.

Initially, pre pandemic I whatsapped some newspaper articles to a handful of friends and family. I think many assumed I’d fallen down an online rabbit hole but it peaked the attention of a few. However it’s been in the papers so much now, even my parents in their 70s and the majority of my friendship group have an opinion. All with the rare exception are pro single sex spaces (despite being left wing)

I once verbally raised the topic a in a pre pandemic coffee morning and everyone was clueless and some equated liking pink and stereotypical girls toys with being a girl. The penny has dropped now thankfully but it was an exasperating moment.

We chat about politics often and I’ve been consistently been very honest about being a floating one issue voter. Im so disappointed that the conservatives are the only ones protecting single sex spaces.

my workplace policies have removed sex and replaced it with gender. I need to relook at this and suggest they correct it but I’m not sure how to approach the issue, how to word things. We have Trans training in December and the workplace will ask for feedback on the training.

hearache

”Trans women look like predators"

- yes, that's why people think you're a bigot.

This is so dishonest!

Why do you continue to do this? All you are doing here is showing you have no argument except for emotional manipulation.

To the point that you have cherry picked words from a post and put them together in a clearly false statement to then accuse the poster of something that she has not said.

Or is it that you think other readers of quatro’s post cannot clearly see what they wrote and your twisted take on it ?

‘You've just said you can't tell the difference between trans people and predators! I would not say that out loud because obviously people will conclude that is bigotry because it is.’

and this

‘Imagine if you'd written "if gay people are fine, you can't tell the difference between them and predators", would that be a homophobic statement? Yes, obviously.’

No.

Imagine if you’d written, ‘if male people are fine, but you can’t tell the difference between those who are predators or not’ is the correct comparator.

And is a true representation of the issue and neatly relates to the need for safeguarding.

That is why safeguarding exists!

Only a person deeply entrenched in their own prejudices about people who say sex is immutable would twist the logic here that way that you have hearache.

And guess what! Males of ALL sexual orientations are subject to the exact same safeguarding protocols! Males of all occupations and ethnicities and marriage status and the list goes on.

98% of sex crimes in the UK are committed by males! (You know this because you have been on many threads where people have said this. Most likely directly to you)

There are no sub groups of males who warrant special treatment when it comes to robust safeguarding.

Why?

Because no one can usually tell the difference between a male who is going to commit a sex crime and one who isn’t from looking at them.

If you have a way, please tell us AND hire yourself out to the world as a consultant. And apply for a Nobel Prize.

Maybe you can say quatrofromaggio didn’t articulate it fully in that post. However, they did shortly after. And you then took an even more deliberate twist to make the post seem hateful.

We know that you don’t seem to have a grasp of safeguarding principles from your numerous other posts. Your ‘gotchas’ are based on flawed logic as usual and require emotional manipulation from you to make your point.

It really has, I love the solidarity we have as an LGBT community. It's great that we watch each other's backs.

Yes. We know this about you hearache.

Please tell us though, Do you feel 100% comfortable in what Stonewall representatives say 100% of the time, as that is the bar you have set with your vilification of Allison Bailey and Baroness Nicholson?

Do you 100% support Peter Tatchell, Nancy Kelley and Jane Fae 100%, throughout their lives, and about any topic?

Yes or No. why?

Do you support all the transitioned male’s quotes I have posted on threads you have been actively on where they show their hateful opinions on females?

I can post them again. I actually have a list since the last two times. Happy to ‘watch their backs and express solidarity’? Particularly their kind of solidarity where some liken female bodies just just fuck holes.

Yes or no?

Have you yet come up with a list of successes for the Stonewall group for their first 2-3 years? So we can compare like for like against Stonewall’s ‘wins’ vs LGB Alliance real life and evidenced successes?

Like rational adults would then discuss and compare groups before making numerous deeply prejudiced and unevidenced accusations against one of those groups. That would be ‘watching their backs’, not just childishly making unfounded accusations pulled directly from twitter.

Are you finally going to actively engage with the topics? Or are we just going to have another repeat of bad faith posting?

Because you are ‘watching’ their backs.

Solidarity and all that.

Most of the LGB community absolutely know that Male and Female is about your physical sexed body, not your feelings. There is nowhere near as much solidarity on this issue as you seem to think. Certainly not when past adolescence

Oh I forgot one.

Did you think this was some kind of clever rhetorical device? Whereas it is merely a lazy dishonesty.

So I have recently tried to delicately address this when it was raised at work. I'm in the NHS and our department (like many, so this shouldn't be outing) has revised it's paperwork as it's going online. The box for patient sex has been replaced with gender. This is the NHS! I have found trying to articulate why this is an issue to be a terrifying minefield because of the "be kind" TWAW stance our Trust adopted following Stonewall training.

Unfortunately if I press any harder my professional reputation is going to be affected and I'm not at the point in my career where I feel able to die on this hill.

@Hearach15 must be the most wilfully obtuse poster on MN. I'm trying to be polite.