What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

We did compromise

Yes. Trying has not once acknowledged that he was effectively telling women to 'suck eggs'. That he was saying 'compromise' but we already have, we are already trying to reach a better compromise.

And again, the question has been avoided: What is the compromise in the female prison situation and rape crisis centres?

These ARE black and white situations. You either put females at risk, or you hurt transitioned males feelings.

Helleofabore · Today 08:36
I also have realised I didn’t end up posting my thoughts on this narrative about the 80% business.
I keep forgetting that there is a group in society who think only in terms of ‘purity’. I shouldn’t forget it, as we see accusations of it constantly in some form or other on this board. Whether it is the echo chamber route (and the fuckwittery of accusing us of an echo chamber when those people are free to post and engage if they actually wanted to) or discussion on who we should or shouldn’t listen to or read, or the constant ‘you all think alike!’ routes.
Maybe if you live your life measuring purity, you will find it fascinating that you can belong to a political party and disagree on some issues. Or can post on a forum board and not have people agree with everything you say. Or fully respect someone’s views on one thing, when you completely disagree on another.
Like that is not normal expected adult behaviour.
To be clear, I do not know if this is at all relevant to Trying. It may be.
So, when some posters expect that other posters won’t agree with you on the x%, you write off an entire board because of your prejudices. Because that poster has projected their need for ‘purity’ onto a community they haven’t tried to engage with properly.
There is an expectation that the x % is extreme. That extreme’ group use language that is exclusive, when society is demanding inclusive in language and every other aspect and that dissension is hate. Hence it is absolutely fine to ban dissenting females from political parties for not being pure enough in thought.

Love this one. Myself too exhausted to put it any better.
Thank you! Hope you won't get deleted any time soon

My first post on this forum was that I think most trans people just want to live their life without a load of people telling them they're awful people.

Going back to this @Trying20 here's an idea if trans people don't want people to think they are awful, or tell them that their behaviour is awful then best not to behave awfully or be awful, don't you think?

It is beyond awful to try and remove rights, services and spaces from other people who need them, don't you think?

It is beyond awful to insist and demand access to spaces and services which results in the very people for whom those spaces and services were set up being excluded, don't you think?

You @Trying20 appear to be saying that if only the women on here and in women's organisations would just ask nicely for their rights, spaces and services the men who have removed them might, just might, let the women have them or some bastardised form of them, patriarchy eh ain't it grand. Which other group, demographic or people would you tell to ask nicely?

if only the women on here and in women's organisations would just ask nicely for their rights, spaces and services the men who have removed them might, just might, let the women have them

Except as those of us stuck here in this groundhogs day conversation we've had so, so many times, were here on the threads years back when we tried this.

And got told no. And laughed at. And told to die in a grease fire. Or that women getting murdered and excluded was a fair price for male people to be happier.

It's the arrogance of believe that no one with XX chromosomes ever thought of and tried this.

Trying , do you believe you have engaged with the OP at all in this thread?

You didn't say 'you think they should'. The OP was talking about legal rights.

Please, for your own sanity, learn how to use MN. You can sort out tagging yourself re your own preferences - you don't need to ask each individual user not to tag you. Please also read the Talk guidelines, and perhaps don't get huffy when people don't react well to your not sticking to general thread etiquette.

I’d fucked off with my radical “out there” ideas.

Hilarious. It takes a pretty thick skin to have not read posts telling you just how most of your 'ideas' are the same as ours, or have been tried and rejected ... not by us.

Your 'out there ideas' were that us discussing them collectively was 'extremist' talk, and that we are 'incels' and fighting a 'made up war'.

It is rather breathtaking when you see it in action.

You are absolutely welcome to stay, but if you want to have a reasoned discussion, start asking reasoned questions and start actually reading what we are posting and processing it.

What I’m questioning/say is the approach you’ve taken above, where you’ve lumped all “trans people” together, rather than focussed on the extreme end.
I said “most trans people just want to be accepted” you said, essentially “well then they should stop being awful people”. It makes an enemy out of most trans people, and suddenly, trans people are a massive threat.

Who is it who are pushing for legislative changes? Who is it who are demanding access to female only spaces and services? Who is it who are demanding the language associated with women be changed? Who is it who are already accessing female spaces and services with no regard or care about how women feel about that? Now, if you say it is just the extremist end then there are a fuck ton at the extreme end and if the extreme end do not speak for the majority then the majority should tell them to shut the fuck up.

I absolutely do think that a transwoman who goes on lesbian dating apps, or in lesbian groups or meeting places expecting the lesbians in there to consider them a potential partner is an awful person. I absolutely do think that transwomen going to women only swimming sessions, toilets, changing rooms, etc., completely disregarding the impact that has on the women who need and use those services is an awful person.

Happy to accept trans people as trans people not happy to, and won't, accept that they have actually changed sex and that this gives them carte blanche to access spaces and services for the sex they are not.

To paraphrase JKR:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.

Live your best life in peace and security.

But force women out of their own spaces and services, remove their language and definitions to accommodate you - NO.

Oh, wims.

Let's go and be unreasonable in the evening sunshine with a glass of wine and some of the ridiculous cake I made yesterday. Four layers! What possessed me, it's definitely extreme and insane ... anyway, come and help me defeat it.

mmm..... cake and wine wins!

Awesome Arabella. Thanks. And I expect that it will be a particularly good cake.... four layers!

@Trying20

The question is very easy its in the title.

What rights don't transpeople have?

Are you able to answer or do you just want to tell us all we are doing it wrong while derailing the thread...again?

@Trying20 here's two recent examples of awful behaviour by prominent TW:

Despite a gender neutral toilet being provided they insisted on using the female only facility and bragging about it.

One of the self same prominent TW bragging about using the Women's Pond on Hampsted Heath despite knowing full well that by doing so numerous women, especially those from particular faiths could not longer use that pond. Said TW wouldn't use the mixed sex pond that is available, oh no, they had to use the one set aside for women only thereby excluding other women.

These are only two recent examples, there are many, many more so as I said if trans people and in particular transwomen don't wish to be thought of as awful, stop being awful, stop being selfish, stop being so fucking self entitled.

given I’m a silly gay man with no skin in the game forcing myself into female spaces and telling you what to do

It's got zero to do with your sexual orientation.

I see nothing that anyone's tried to explain has made any sense or caused any thoughts other than annoyed at lack of positive reception.

Shame. But this kind of conversation with well intentioned men is sadly groundhog day for many women on this board, there are dozens of these threads over the past 8 plus years and most follow the same basic script.

given I’m a silly gay man with no skin in the game forcing myself into female spaces and telling you what to do

The hyperbole is off the charts here readers.

Maybe if you read back, the only person who ever says trying is stupid or silly is trying. I don’t think this is self-deprecation either. Is it more projection? I am not sure.

Hey! trying no one is saying you are ‘forcing your way into female spaces here’… are you in real life?

But I do think calling us incels, extremists and fighting a made up war is telling us what to do.

What do you mean by

What I’m questioning/say is the approach you’ve taken above, where you’ve lumped all “trans people” together, rather than focussed on the extreme end.
I said “most trans people just want to be accepted” you said, essentially “well then they should stop being awful people”. It makes an enemy out of most trans people, and suddenly, trans people are a massive threat.

What does 'be accepted mean'? I can do a lot to accept Trans People. I can show friendship, respect, kindness, consideration, etc etc. None of that costs me anything and is how I treat everyone anyway.

What I won't do willingly is to allow single sex spaces become mixed sex. I won't believe that TWAW. Its not only because I would feel a little uncomfortable, but it's for all the reasons many on here have listed. And as a mother of a daughter, I owe it to her to protect her. She will need to become aware of risks that my mother never had to warn me against.

We simply can't say that the exponential rise in the amount of men identifying as women is not increasing the risk to woman and girls when they use what should be their safe spaces in that exact same exponential way.

@Trying20

Women are saying no. Deal with it.

I am so sick of women pointing out problems they are facing and being met by claims that they are exaggerating, they aren't being kind, they are using the wrong tone, they are blaming the wrong group.

We are facing multiple threats on several fronts right now. Its irrelevant that many women are also involved in removing women's rights, that isn't news to us. Its how the patriarchal system works, feminist voices will always be in the minority.
The threats remain.

Possibly women shouldn't encounter a load of people either saying that they're awful people when they're just trying to live their life.

What you're in fact wanting, is that women having their feet stamped on, smile and don't protest, or label the foot stamper.

No. Sorry and all that. But having a vagina does not mean I have to put up with women being treated like this and be nice about it too. If that makes you uncomfortable then you're going to have be uncomfortable.

'hateful' 'anger' 'awful'

The only person on this thread using those words is you, Trying.

You are repeatedly interpreting women calmly and clearly saying 'no' to males in their spaces as 'anger' and 'hatred'. (We've moved on from 'insane' and 'extreme', at least). You are projecting this tone onto women's words.

Why it is that you need women to performatively pay you endless bloody attention and be extra super nice to you, I do not know, but I've had enough of this game. Goodnight.

You're in a battle with extremists - and the majority of people know that these are extremist ideas from the TRAs - I think we agree on that?

I don't think we agree on that at all. Nicola Sturgeon is very close to making self-ID of legal sex law in Scotland. This makes it mainstream, not 'extremist TRA'. Unless, of course, you believe that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are extremist TRAs. Is that what you think? If so, you'd have to add many Labour MPs to that list of extremist TRAs as well, with people like Lisa Nandy wanting to put male rapists in women's prisons if that's what they want and if it would make them feel happier.

That's not me wading in with my male privilege telling you what to think. That's a woman. That's one of the people you are claiming to speak for, saying that they don't think you speak for them.

Nobody here thinks we speak for 'all women'. Of course there are women who disagree with us (like Nicola Sturgeon and Lisa Nandy). But those women don't speak for us either. Perhaps you just haven't realised that women are humans with different opinions - just like men have lots of different opinions. We don't all think the same. And I think a lot of women just haven't woken up to what they stand to lose.

So therefore, to clarify my first post on this thread - what rights do trans people not have? I don't know, but I don't think they should have a load of people saying they're awful people when they're just trying to live their life.

Why do you keep repeating this straw man about people saying trans people are 'awful people'? Nobody has said that.

So therefore, to clarify my first post on this thread - what rights do trans people not have? I don't know, but I don't think they should have a load of people saying they're awful people when they're just trying to live their life.

Ffs @Trying20 all of that bluster and this is what you actually had to contribute to the thread? Can you make it any plainer that you have zero interest in the actual question by OP and the discussion point raised by a prominent TRA?

Your contempt is clear. I bet you won't even read the links in the OP and the following posts before you tried to derail everything.