Antipodean fruit grower statement

[nothingcomestonothing]

The antipodean fruit growers site is down. A statement from the owner reads in part:

What I fear more than losing my site, being sued, or dealing with police is living in a world where [redacted by me as would be against MN talk guidelines] while normal people are not allowed to even discuss it.

The mob has already planned subsequent targets. Should we stay down, they will then attack 'gender critical' communities - especially those ran by and for women. No place can exist online which criticizes [redacted], and nothing would excite them more than this power and domination struggle being inflicted on a female space instead.

Posted for info.

This thread is going to be mined to within an inch of its life by trans activists and it will be very difficult to respond to how they represent what this says "about MN as a whole" without one's points being drowned out by accusations of "you're supporting XYZ".

That's true. But what, realistically, can you do? Trans activists lie all the time. How many times, for example, have you seen JKR accused of being anti-Semitic, homophobic or racist? Of having deliberately chosen the name of a homophobe as a pseudonym? Of having included a trans serial killer in her book? All completely untrue and easily disprovable. And that's before we get started on fake suicide stats, exaggerated claims about trans people being at risk of violence and murder, lies about numbers of de-transitioners etc.

You can't expect people on here to post always with a mind to how TRAs might twist it to look like something else. It ends up being just yet another exercise in self-censorship.

I know you don't like KF, but your level of credulity about allegations against them is reaching either dishonesty or wilful blindness. Taking that Near "suicide" thing as gospel, um, no. You need to dig into this further. Unless you are privy to information no-one else is, there is as yet no evidence he's even dead.

Maybe you are the credulous one here? Unless the purpose of 'digging in' is to discover your preferred truth?

You are totally misunderstanding this. Null is not trying to force anyone to "host" his website. He's trying to run HIS OWN website.

Sure - but part of the issue (is it not) is that the website cannot find hosts to host it? Is this not the issue with Cloudflare?

Personally, given the massive push to shut down anyone, or any site, which exposes paedophilia, or predation, I would rather Kiwi farms was up than down.

I believe the owner of the site has made statements to say that there are certain rules which he tells members to abide by, and presumably they moderate accordingly.

It doesn't stop them being misogynistic and it doesn't stop them not understanding the vulnerability of certain people who come across as absolute tossers either.

They have threads on people like Harrop, Haden, McKinnon, Yaniv. In fact some of these individuals get KF absolutely spitting with fury. All highly justifiable, too. And I'd bet a pound to a penny, that some of these people are also quite vulnerable in certain respects. Almost every thread about them will speculate on their mental health.

The issue is DDOS attacks. Same method that takes Mumsnet offline.

here’s cloudflare’s explanation of DDOS: www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/learning/ddos/what-is-a-ddos-attack/

That's true. But what, realistically, can you do?

We use our own judgement, and that will lead to people engaging with this thread in different ways.

Almost every thread about them will speculate on their mental health.

by which I mean threads on here, too.

The real discussion imo is how is such an anti free speech agenda able to get so much power and why aren't the authorities doing anything about it.

Maybe you are the credulous one here? Unless the purpose of 'digging in' is to discover your preferred truth?

Maybe, but it's a balance of probabilities thing. We don't know the person in question's actual identity, which makes it unverifiable, but then as I understand it, it's been confirmed that the suicide story as told isn't true, due to there being zero matching deaths of foreigners in Japan in the period in question.

I see several reasons to disbelieve the story, and no compelling reason to believe it. If I said I was committing suicide now and "NecessaryScene" never posted again, I also would see no reason to believe a real person had died, rather than me just changing user name.

The strongest evidence of "death" is "those anonymous account handles are no longer active". That's it. As far as I'm aware.

Sure - but part of the issue (is it not) is that the website cannot find hosts to host it? Is this not the issue with Cloudflare?

I think I made the mistake of including a web address in my last post covering this. Trying again.

He is running his own independent server plugged in at the top level of the internet because he can't find hosts. He is being served by Cloudflare for attack protection, and he currently has no issue with them.

His server is as top-level as Twitter, and no-one has any more right to pull his site offline than they do to pull Twitter offline. They're equivalent in terms of independence of operation.

If Cloudflare pulled service, it would be an inconvenience, but he could cope.

The problems at the minute are just denial-of-service attacks - people flooding the server. Enough to cause problems upstream so surrounding networks had to set up temporary protection. Those attacks are, as far as I'm aware, illegal. KF is the victim of a crime here, not the perpetrator.

I believe he's currently trying to make the system more distributed to avoid a single point of failure for attackers.

Here’s a Mumsnet thread to confirm that Mumsnet has been targeted for DDOS:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4171586-Site-problems-following-DDOS-attack-more-information-here

and here’s a techy article about the Farm’s recent troubles: www.hackread.com/kiwi-farms-offline-ddos-attack-hosting-issues/

Personally, given the massive push to shut down anyone, or any site, which exposes paedophilia, or predation, I would rather Kiwi farms was up than down.

...

They have threads on people like Harrop, Haden, McKinnon, Yaniv. In fact some of these individuals get KF absolutely spitting with fury. All highly justifiable, too.

If I owned an enterprise like Cloudfare then my choice would be not to host KF.

My own view is that KF quite likes easy targets and even better if they can justify their existence by saying "oh, but we are against paedophiles, we're the good guys (PS - please excuse our rampant misogyny and the collateral damage)".

criminal activity is not covered by free speech.

So there is absolutely no hypocrisy in being against CSA and for free speech.

But the debate is about what activity should be considered criminal - or if not, simply unconscionable.

Maybe, but it's a balance of probabilities thing. We don't know the person in question's actual identity, which makes it unverifiable, but then as I understand it, it's been confirmed that the suicide story as told isn't true, due to there being zero matching deaths of foreigners in Japan in the period in question.

Maybe it is about the validity of 'receipts' then and who chooses to believe which ones. Someone has produced a document that purports to show x and some people choose to believe it because they want to believe it.

I hope that Near is still alive. If Near faked Near's own death then GOOD ON NEAR. I hope that Near got the help Near needed and is living a happy life.

It does not change that what KF did to Near was appalling, unwarranted and reprehensible.

Some of KF is vile. The people they keep receipts on are (IMO) far more vile so on balance I would like KF to remain. The fact that the far-more-vile people really really want KF gone means it’s even more important it should exist.

If Cloudflare pulled service, it would be an inconvenience, but he could cope.

Fine. My point is, though, that Cloudfare would be perfectly in its rights to do so as are all the servers that refuse to host the site. Ditto any site. This is part of free speech in a capitalist society.

They have threads on people like Harrop, Haden, McKinnon, Yaniv. In fact some of these individuals get KF absolutely spitting with fury. All highly justifiable, too. And I'd bet a pound to a penny, that some of these people are also quite vulnerable in certain respects. Almost every thread about them will speculate on their mental health.

That's not the same as targeting a young woman, still a teenager, who seems to have been a victim of abuse as well as having poor mental health. Her only 'crime' seems to have been posting stuff online which they found amusing.

That's not the same as targeting the people who you mention who have all, to some degree, caused harm to others.

Well, I'm pretty certain, that a bit of hate posting is absolutely what gets some of these people out of bed in the morning.

it's not exclusive to Kiwi farms.

But, as far as I'm aware, they do tend to confine themselves to people whose hypocrisy is quite dangerous. Whether that is to salve their conscience or not, who knows.

I agree. I haven't read the thread. What was the motivation to have a thread about her?

Usually people have to go through some kind of vetting to be considered bad enough to get a thread about them.

But, as far as I'm aware, they do tend to confine themselves to people whose hypocrisy is quite dangerous. Whether that is to salve their conscience or not, who knows.

Old Crone's post answers this I think (or says what I would have said except better).

What was the motivation to have a thread about her?

No idea. The thread's easy enough to find. I've read the OP and I can't see why they decided to target this woman.

What was the motivation to have a thread about her?

'Lolcow'. Simple as that.

I'm really sorry but that does sound like 'what did she do to provoke him'?

I don't disagree that targeting a vulnerable teenager is different, of course.

I don't have sufficient information about the site, and I'm not prepared to go and get it, in order to understand the difference and why they pursued her.

I do know that quite a few dangerous individuals want the site shut down because they know too much about them.

oh dear. It's not meant to. I don't see them in quite the same light as you do.

They appear to have quite strict criteria on who they target. That's what I meant.

having a list of who deserves to be targeted by kiwi farms and who doesn't and why, is probably whole other thread entirely.

and I'm quite prepared to accept that some people think that no one should be targeted.

For me, the problem is the censorship that leads to a place like Kiwi farms flourishing.

You can't even say the word bloody cult on this site without someone deleting you. It's mad.

If people could say what they wanted to here, and post the photos they think need publicising, they would have no need of kiwi farms. The way they go about things wouldn't have to be accepted. We could all be doing it, with a lot more discernment. And humanity.

But the debate is about what activity should be considered criminal - or if not, simply unconscionable.

is it? I thought the debate was whether KF should be able to exist or not?

re: Cloudflare - they have never indicated that they don’t wish to continue providing security services to KF. The problem is that the criminal hacktivist DDOS attacks use up so many resources that the Cloudflare occasionally have to temporarily shut KF down in order to not leave the other websites they protect underserviced.

Cloudflare are like internet doormen - if there is a riot in town and it’s heading for one of your businesses it’s more effective to pull the shutters down on the target business and spread the security staff out to protect your other branches until the rioters wear themselves out.

the exact same form of attack is used against Mumsnet (who are also dependent on similar security services).

Arguing that companies can withdraw services from anyone they don’t like wouldn’t just shut down kiwi farms, followed to it’s logical conclusion it would also shut down Mumsnet, Ovarit and get every GC woman booted off Twitter.

The only protections we have is if we make it clear that the line is the law.

Kiwi Farms would probably be illegal if it were based in the UK but it’s operating under US law.

Anyone who doesn’t like the current law should have to do the hard work and get the law changed (or upheld better) as we are trying to do here in the UK, rather than ¯\(ツ)/ and say ‘capitalism’.

as it stands, Cloudflare are happy to provide services to KF, but I expect the more DDOS attacks, the more they will bill KF. Which really is capitalism.