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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genderism as a patriarchal ideology

77 replies

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 26/08/2022 23:09

This is based on something I posted on another thread which has since been deleted as it was about a particular individual. But the point is a universal one so I hope that as a concept, directed at an ideology rather than any one individual, it can stand.

It is my sincere belief that biologically male people claiming to be women/girls is in itself an act of gross misogyny. People who refer to them as “women” of any kind are colluding with that act of gross misogyny. Whether out of internalised misogyny if they’re female themselves or plain old male-supremacist-based misogyny if they’re male.


It’s misogynistic bigotry. Misogynistic bigots, whether the old fashioned overt sort, or the new fangled covert sort, are not people I see as being worthy of respect. Pandering to them by pretending some biologically male people really are women and calling them “she” is as bad as supporting outright MRAs, and ultimately on a continuum with supporting groups who actively suppress women’s and girls rights, like the Taliban.

It’s all founded on the patriarchal principle of seeing female people as fundamentally lesser than male people, as service humans here to facilitate the lives of the “real” humans, the male ones.


Genderism cannot be seen apart from the context of thousands of years of patriarchy and oppression, control and abuse of the female sex by the male sex. This context is absolutely fundamental and crucial, as is the fact that male oppression, control and abuse of female people is very much ongoing in all parts of the world, not just a historical occurrence.

Members of the oppressor class appropriating the identity and hard-fought-for rights and protections, such as they are, of the oppressed class is in itself an act of oppression. Of control and abuse.

It is impossible for it to be benign as long as there is a power imbalance between male people and female people - and the reality of the biological differences between us means there will always be a power imbalance there, even if we did somehow one day achieve an impossibly utopian state where all the socio-economic power imbalances had been levelled. (And such a day shows no sign of arriving any time soon.)

No woman with an ounce of self respect, or an ounce of care for the rights and safety of women and girls, should be colluding with this massively offensive and damaging shite. It is the same old patriarchy in supposedly modern vestments. It needs to be challenged every bit as much as all the more obvious manifestations of patriarchy. Genderism is essentially inimical to women’s rights, dignity and humanity.

Anyone care to flesh this out some more?

OP posts:
ThomasPenman · 26/08/2022 23:19

Yep. I think it's the height of misogyny to believe a man that says he's a woman and not the woman who says that he's not.

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:22

I think someone who struggles with their own perception of themselves deserve support.

RoseslnTheHospital · 26/08/2022 23:32

I think you've fleshed it out pretty well tbh! I agree exactly with how you've described it.

@CandyLeBonBon I'm not sure how your comment relates to the OP?

Apollo442 · 26/08/2022 23:33

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:22

I think someone who struggles with their own perception of themselves deserve support.

They deserve the same support, empathy and respect that they show others. In spades. With a cherry on top.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/08/2022 23:33

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:22

I think someone who struggles with their own perception of themselves deserve support.

They may need (not sure about 'deserve' in all cases) support - but the support should be to help them accept themselves for who they actually are not collude in a misperception.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 26/08/2022 23:36

I agree with you OP.

I think those who struggle with self perception should be supported to accept themselves as they are, to come to terms with reality and to understand that they cannot control the perceptions of others.

In the case of those whose struggle with self perception consists of denying their male sex and claiming to be female they need to understand that there is no way of expressing that claim which isn’t harmful and offensive to women.

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:44

RoseslnTheHospital · 26/08/2022 23:32

I think you've fleshed it out pretty well tbh! I agree exactly with how you've described it.

@CandyLeBonBon I'm not sure how your comment relates to the OP?

People who experience distress when they feel they are not the sex they want to be absolutely deserve support.

Yes, self acceptance should be the ultimate goal, but for some, transitioning to appear as close to the preferred sex, can help. So it's clearly not black and white.

Many people who experience dysphoria find relief in transitioning.

I think the op is framing 'men who think they're women' as misogynistic bigotry is perhaps a little simplistic.

I think this is a very nuanced conversation.

JellySaurus · 26/08/2022 23:55

Yes, self acceptance should be the ultimate goal, but for some, transitioning to appear as close to the preferred sex, can help. So it's clearly not black and white.

Fine, go ahead, transition, present yourself as you feel appropriate. In this sense it is no different to tattoos or a nose job, or a corset or silicone 'chicken fillets'. But that's as far as it goes. You present yourself as you wish, but the rest of the world does not have to pander to that wish. The acceptance is accepting the transgender person as a feminine-presenting man or a masculine presenting woman, not pretending that they have changed sex and then performing female servitude to them.

RoseslnTheHospital · 26/08/2022 23:55

I don't think the OP was suggesting that those men don't get help and support for their distress or that they shouldn't transition to a state they feel less distressed in. Rather, there should be a recognition that none of that is anything to do with women and women's lived experience and is not something that in any way means that women need to accept the ideology that goes along with it. Nor the consequences of that ideology. Nor shy away or be banned from discussing the fact that it is misogyny (whether deliberate or due to a lack of awareness) to claim womanhood based on their distress.

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:57

JellySaurus · 26/08/2022 23:55

Yes, self acceptance should be the ultimate goal, but for some, transitioning to appear as close to the preferred sex, can help. So it's clearly not black and white.

Fine, go ahead, transition, present yourself as you feel appropriate. In this sense it is no different to tattoos or a nose job, or a corset or silicone 'chicken fillets'. But that's as far as it goes. You present yourself as you wish, but the rest of the world does not have to pander to that wish. The acceptance is accepting the transgender person as a feminine-presenting man or a masculine presenting woman, not pretending that they have changed sex and then performing female servitude to them.

I understand that. I think framing all men who wish to transition as 'misogynistic bigots' a bit strong.

MangyInseam · 26/08/2022 23:58

I don't know. I think you are drawing a lot of very abstracted connections.

You could certainly say I think that someone who accepts this ideology has a vision of womanhood that is shallow and performative, essentially a construct. And that it therefore dehumanizes.

I am not totally happy with characterizing that as necessarily misogyny, it seems to me that in practice it more often stems from a kind of narcissism. Which in the end isn't really elevating any class of things over another class, but rather the self above all things.

Is that the same impulse patriarchy comes from? I am not sure, I think patriarchy is a pretty meaningless concept unless it's tied very tightly to a material explanation, it becomes a bit like talking about the treasury of merit. It lends itself to fanciful and extensive expansions on the theme and the social sciences need to be careful of fanciful ideas.

But if we said that it simply means the historical tendency for women to be more vulnerable to certain types of exploitation, and the potential for societies to bake that in to a greater or lesser degree, I think what I might say is that it represents an example where social institutions meant to protect women from vulnerability are being undermined. In order to advantage a certain group of people - not necessarily men as a whole, though.

But in some sense I'm not sure that really gets us very far. I don't know that it really helps us unpack how this ideology came to look plausible to some many people, including especially people who should be able to see through it. unpicking that involves things like looking how other intellectual movements of various types came together to create an environment where people could take these ideas seriously. Which for the most part wasn't about disempowering women and in some cases was even an attempt to assert female equality.

MangyInseam · 27/08/2022 00:00

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:57

I understand that. I think framing all men who wish to transition as 'misogynistic bigots' a bit strong.

Yes, I mean there is a whole group of people who were told by the medical community that this was a real option for dealing with their problems.

QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 00:02

OP, RoaringtoLangClegintheDark: yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Yes, a good post.
It is utter, utter misogyny. It goes back millennia, and it persists.
For a short few recent decades, it did seem like women seemed to be progressing towards gaining equality, of sorts, with men.
But no. Not tolerated.
Women, get back in your box.
And the men wanting and insisting and forcing themselves into that box with us too, all snug and up close and tight.
Shudder.

Waitwhat23 · 27/08/2022 00:03

Interestingly, our old friend Discovereads has reported this thread to the Nightwatch.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/08/2022 00:11

Waitwhat23 · 27/08/2022 00:03

Interestingly, our old friend Discovereads has reported this thread to the Nightwatch.

It doesn't fit the remit of spam or 'glaringly obvious trolls' , wonder how that will go down with them?

QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 00:21

Just very curious, but how do you know that another poster complained? Did he post on Twitter, or something?

Waitwhat23 · 27/08/2022 00:23

No, the thread came up in active - happened to see it and clicked on the link to this thread.

QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 00:24

Sorry, that was a derail.

I really would like to get back to the fact that women have been regarded down the ages as the support system for men.

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 00:24

I understand that. I think framing all men who wish to transition as 'misogynistic bigots' a bit strong.

When men transitioning means women being repurposed as service humans whose function is to affirm feminine stereotypes, then yes, it is misogynistic bigotry.

QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 00:29

Men who transition need to work out their own support systems.

Men who transition have no entitlement to expect women to pleasure them.

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 00:35

There are some transwomen who are quite forthright that they remain male, and do not expect women to affirm their feminine identities. AFAIK they are no more or less misogynistic than the average male (possibly less, given their awareness of this issue). They were given the misogynistic advice from male doctors to go and live 'as women' by using women's spaces, such as the Ladies' loos, to relieve their dysphoria. No consideration by these doctors for the women already using these spaces. No, just the misogynistic assumption that women are there to service males. Unfortunately the trans ideology has probably ruined whatever acceptance and tolerance these tw would once have received from the majority of women.

terryleather · 27/08/2022 00:38

I'm with you Roaring.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 27/08/2022 00:39

But that’s just my point, CandyLeBonBon. Ultimately, I don’t think this is a nuanced conversation at all. It has been made to appear so only because the rights and needs of women are still so inconsequential in the world’s eyes.

Having recourse to medical interventions to more closely approximate the opposite sex may provide relief to some of those males with acute psychological issues, but their relief is at the expense of women’s humanity. It causes concrete harm to women and girls. It damages us.

Some male detransitioners now speaking out about how they were failed by the medical establishment are clearly victims themselves of the current trend to reify all things genderist. But it’s striking how, when they identified as trans and took steps to appear female, not one of them ever considered how what they were doing could or would impact on women.

They didn’t need to take that into account. They didn’t need to stop and try and see the world from a female perspective: nobody ever demanded that of them. No one ever does, in a world based on patriarchy.

Again and again women are adjured to be kind, to comprehend and empathise with the suffering of distressed male people; lambasted when we don’t. Yet the same expectations are never levied upon male people with regard to us, despite all the myriad ways female people have been hurt across the centuries, are still vulnerable and still being hurt now.

This is misogyny. It may not be conscious or intentional, as in the case of some of these male detransitioners. They didn’t mean to hurt us. They simply never thought about us as human beings. They simply never stopped to think how they were using us to facilitate their lives, how what they were doing impacted upon our lives. You could perhaps call it misogyny by omission.

Omitting to see us as full human beings with our own unique experience and history, a history in which oppression by the male sex looms large in whichever direction you look. Full human beings with our own material reality, which is underpinned by our biology: our female reproductive system, so vastly different from the male one, and our physiology that is relatively more vulnerable whether our reproductive system functions or not, whether we use it to reproduce or not.

Full human beings with particular experiences and reality which male people simply do not share in.

Distressed male people are exempt from having to think about all this. Their needs are paramount. If approximating femaleness makes them feel better, that's all that matters. Not the impact on female people.

We’ve seen this time and time again: in the Hansard record of the discussions around the GRA, in the policy of housing male prisoners in the female estate, in the NHS Annex B allowing males onto female wards, in the innumerable sports bodies who allowed males into female sports and are only now starting to question their earlier decisions, some of them at least. Etc etc etc.

It’s all born out of a world where male people count for more than female people. Genderism is the product of an unequal world, a world that values male people way, way above female people. A world where misogyny is so built in that we don’t even notice it most of the time, because it’s so much part of the air that we breathe, have always breathed.

My contention is that what male people are doing to female people whenever they appropriate the state of womanhood, in the context of millennia of patriarchal oppression, is a form of abuse. It may not be, for the most part, intentional or consciously pursued, but it is abuse nonetheless.

Even when real psychological distress is present, it’s still abuse. Being distressed doesn’t give us the right to hurt others to make ourselves feel better. Only in a patriarchal world would a male person’s distress make him entitled to use female people to alleviate his distress, regardless of whether he hurts those female people in the process.

And please. Let’s not forget that those with acute gender dysphoria and severe psychological distress are very much the minority these days, anyway. It is no longer necessary to even have gender dysphoria to qualify as “trans”. The dogma of gender identity ordains that a male person can be perfectly comfortable with all the most male aspects of himself, and still claim womanhood.

Hence the prevalence of male “women” telling women who challenge them to “suck their girldick,” committing sex offences with their penis and in line with offending rates of other males, and bearded/bestubbled “lesbians”.

It’s gross misogyny, offensive beyond measure, and I’m tired of it. Tired of it all.

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 27/08/2022 00:40

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:44

People who experience distress when they feel they are not the sex they want to be absolutely deserve support.

Yes, self acceptance should be the ultimate goal, but for some, transitioning to appear as close to the preferred sex, can help. So it's clearly not black and white.

Many people who experience dysphoria find relief in transitioning.

I think the op is framing 'men who think they're women' as misogynistic bigotry is perhaps a little simplistic.

I think this is a very nuanced conversation.

Should have quoted this post in my reply above.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 27/08/2022 00:44

And as we've seen on many threads, silence was taken as acceptance by women that males should be able to use these spaces. The doctors did not consider women at all in that respect. No acknowledgement of the fact that women may have stayed silent, retreated or self excluded due to fear or lack of confidence at challenging someone bigger and stronger than them in an enclosed space.

And so it continues. Now with the added threat of being reported to the Police for a hate crime for suggesting that males in a single sex female space might be a bad idea. * *