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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genderism as a patriarchal ideology

77 replies

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 26/08/2022 23:09

This is based on something I posted on another thread which has since been deleted as it was about a particular individual. But the point is a universal one so I hope that as a concept, directed at an ideology rather than any one individual, it can stand.

It is my sincere belief that biologically male people claiming to be women/girls is in itself an act of gross misogyny. People who refer to them as “women” of any kind are colluding with that act of gross misogyny. Whether out of internalised misogyny if they’re female themselves or plain old male-supremacist-based misogyny if they’re male.


It’s misogynistic bigotry. Misogynistic bigots, whether the old fashioned overt sort, or the new fangled covert sort, are not people I see as being worthy of respect. Pandering to them by pretending some biologically male people really are women and calling them “she” is as bad as supporting outright MRAs, and ultimately on a continuum with supporting groups who actively suppress women’s and girls rights, like the Taliban.

It’s all founded on the patriarchal principle of seeing female people as fundamentally lesser than male people, as service humans here to facilitate the lives of the “real” humans, the male ones.


Genderism cannot be seen apart from the context of thousands of years of patriarchy and oppression, control and abuse of the female sex by the male sex. This context is absolutely fundamental and crucial, as is the fact that male oppression, control and abuse of female people is very much ongoing in all parts of the world, not just a historical occurrence.

Members of the oppressor class appropriating the identity and hard-fought-for rights and protections, such as they are, of the oppressed class is in itself an act of oppression. Of control and abuse.

It is impossible for it to be benign as long as there is a power imbalance between male people and female people - and the reality of the biological differences between us means there will always be a power imbalance there, even if we did somehow one day achieve an impossibly utopian state where all the socio-economic power imbalances had been levelled. (And such a day shows no sign of arriving any time soon.)

No woman with an ounce of self respect, or an ounce of care for the rights and safety of women and girls, should be colluding with this massively offensive and damaging shite. It is the same old patriarchy in supposedly modern vestments. It needs to be challenged every bit as much as all the more obvious manifestations of patriarchy. Genderism is essentially inimical to women’s rights, dignity and humanity.

Anyone care to flesh this out some more?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 11:07

Is it possible to opt out of being the sex class that commits most violence, and virtually all sexual assaults?

I think so often we see the personal getting confused with the political - it goes without saying when we discuss male violence or rape we are not accusing all men. NAMALT is unspoken. Yet we have apparently created a class of people who are somehow escaped their sex class; and it is not permitted to include them when we discuss males as a sex class.

Caroffee · 27/08/2022 11:09

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 01:01

Trans ideology gives males the right to describing reality the way they want, while banning women from describing reality the way they experience it. That's misogyny.

Yes.

Wellies54 · 27/08/2022 11:16

I don't think every transwomen is thinking this, but on a broader level gender ideology is 'divide and rule '. Women have been oppressed due to our sex so the initial idea that sex is no longer important can be appealing and sucks us in. However it soon becomes apparent that 'penis havers' are still the same as they have always been and men also don't seem to be asked to give up the word 'man'. Women only win rights when we work together but we are now not allowed to use the word 'woman''. How can we be strong together and stand up for our rights when society deems that 'woman' is anyone and no one - if there is no 'woman' there are no 'women's rights '.

Sistanotcista · 27/08/2022 11:25

ThomasPenman · 26/08/2022 23:19

Yep. I think it's the height of misogyny to believe a man that says he's a woman and not the woman who says that he's not.

@ThomasPenman - this is really powerful. I’d never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 11:28

I think so often we see the personal getting confused with the political - it goes without saying when we discuss male violence or rape we are not accusing all men.

A lot of men take it personally though IME, even the relatively good guys.

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 11:32

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 11:04

Also - we talk about how the word 'woman' has been erased.

Conversely, what happens when we are not allowed to use the word 'man'?

How are women's discussions, conversations and feminism impacted if there are some males we are not allowed to name as men?

Very important point.

We are not allowed to label either ourselves or males accurately.

'No debate' via another strategy.

Thelnebriati · 27/08/2022 12:24

Gender is a set of sexist stereotypes. If people want to base their identity on stereotypes that's their issue; it should not be allowed to undermine the rights of other groups which include safeguarding.

''FOI just returned reveals 14 reports - 3 rapes - of sexual assault in my hospital over last 3 years, 4 on wards. No charges made. Never discussed, no safety campaign, as if never happened. Which other protected group have suffered so much, and without redress? It will continue.''
www.twuko.com/Siennasaurus1/tweet/1562739010313003008

MarmaRell78 · 27/08/2022 12:28

PomegranateOfPersephone · 26/08/2022 23:36

I agree with you OP.

I think those who struggle with self perception should be supported to accept themselves as they are, to come to terms with reality and to understand that they cannot control the perceptions of others.

In the case of those whose struggle with self perception consists of denying their male sex and claiming to be female they need to understand that there is no way of expressing that claim which isn’t harmful and offensive to women.

I think that's said perfectly

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 14:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 11:28

I think so often we see the personal getting confused with the political - it goes without saying when we discuss male violence or rape we are not accusing all men.

A lot of men take it personally though IME, even the relatively good guys.

I think we had almost started to get to the point where there was a glimmer of understanding. I do think 'me too' had opened a lot of men's eyes to how it was/is for women.

And just as that realisation starts to dawn so women can name male violence and lay bare the mechanisms behind how we are oppressed by it - oh, look, we can redefine all the words and pretend that shifts the power differential, so that all of a sudden, 'not all males' are men and we can no longer discuss things accurately, meaningfully, and clearly.

I've just this morning seen another claim on Twitter that 'transwomen present no threat to cis women' - as if saying the magic words somehow transforms everything.

And now are we going to have to do the 'Not All Transwomen' when discussing, for example, the % of male sex offenders in prison who identify as women?

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 14:06

To clarify, too, I don't think this is all hinging on transwomen, at all.

I think there are many many MRAs or common or garden misogynists who are very happy to see women's ability to name, describe and discuss male violence curtailed, hobbled, restricted.

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 14:07

If women cannot name males they cannot name male violence and we cannot solve the problem. If we are scared to use the word 'male' or 'man' we are laying ourselves open to abuse and making ourselves more vulnerable. The discourse itself becomes impossible.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 16:29

I think there are many many MRAs or common or garden misogynists who are very happy to see women's ability to name, describe and discuss male violence curtailed, hobbled, restricted.

Yes, I agree.

WomaninBoots · 27/08/2022 16:57

Very much in agreement Roaring

As I said on the other thread. 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

I don't think I'm adding anything to the discussion, certainly no eloquence, but one way I've been parsing these kind of ideas in my own mind is...

In order to believe that a male person can be a woman you have to believe that "woman" is a social role over and above the biological reproductive role (including the behavioural reproductive role). That belief is intrinsically sexist and in most people, in a misogynistic society, also misogyny.

TheBiologyStupid · 27/08/2022 21:57

CandyLeBonBon · 26/08/2022 23:22

I think someone who struggles with their own perception of themselves deserve support.

Absolutely. But not access to women's single-sex spaces, services, or facilities.

TheBiologyStupid · 27/08/2022 22:03

It’s gross misogyny, offensive beyond measure, and I’m tired of it. Tired of it all.

Agreed, Roaring (didn't want to quote your whole post, but yes!)

LizzieVereker · 27/08/2022 22:08

MarmaRell78 · 27/08/2022 12:28

I think that's said perfectly

Abso-blooming-lutely 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

theclangersarecoming · 28/08/2022 00:45

Amelanchier · 27/08/2022 08:01

I am broadly in agreement with you. How do you address the counter-argument that people don't identify into the class that they hate?

@Amelanchier Quite a lot of psychodynamic theories explore why people might often be attracted to, and even internalise, perceptions of things that they also hate.

Quite a lot of motivation, as Arabella puts it, is obscured by the narrative of “gender dysphoria”, too. I think it’s clear that transwomen might not all wish to transition for the same reasons. Many prominent transwomen like Andrea Long Chu and Torrey Peters - both activist writers - write about the strong influence of porn on their perceptions of both the desire to transition, and the perception of women as abased sexual objects.

For example, search for “feminisation” or “sissy” porn, or “forced feminisation” (which both Chu and Peters explicitly write about in Females and Detransition, Baby), which is based around the idea that women are abject bodies just there to be penetrated by men and sexually debased. This is then recast as an erotic experience of enjoyable sexual abjection for a man to imagine himself in the place of a woman.

You can easily find online extracts from their texts, and also many other narratives from transwomen writing about the influence of porn on “trans identity”.

I do hope this post doesn’t get deleted, since I am literally describing things that are openly written about by transactivists and transwomen. If it gets deleted for whatever reason, I will then cut and paste relevant extracts from their works onto the thread, so that we can all read from the sources of their published works, what many prominent transactivists write about what they believe women to be, and their bodies to be for.

DistantStrimmers · 28/08/2022 01:07

Yes, theclangersarecoming, interesting post.

It's privileged, jaded men doing degradation tourism.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 28/08/2022 01:12

Interesting. For me it’s not the trans people I knew on the past that seem misogynistic. I knew some men who dressed as women, but were very respectful, didn’t want to go in female spaces. Did not insist on pronouns. Knew that they were men who wanted to dress or have surgery to be more female. That’s all. So I’m not sure it’s the whole men wanting to be women in itself.

But this modern trans movement. Which is barging into womens spaces, going after so called terfs with horrible threats. Saying women are now cis or whatever. Yes, very misogynistic. Very privileged. And very entitled.

theclangersarecoming · 28/08/2022 01:32

DistantStrimmers · 28/08/2022 01:07

Yes, theclangersarecoming, interesting post.

It's privileged, jaded men doing degradation tourism.

Yes — no one even has to look at any of it, but any woman on this thread who does not yet understand what is going on should simply do an internet search on “feminization porn” and look at how many results come up, what cross tags come with then, and where the results are located.

This is big business in the porn industry and a fairly mainstream “interest” of male porn viewers now.

And it is not appealing to its enthusiasts because its idea of being forcibly “feminized ” is the kind of thing Emmeline Pankhurst would have approved of, I can say that…

The whole idea of it is enjoyment in the “humiliation” of being sexually degraded. Because that’s what women are imagined to be. Sexually debased objects for the erotic use of the “penis haver”. Same old same old, whether the viewer is imagining himself doing the degrading, or being the one degraded.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 29/08/2022 23:00

Wow, so many brilliant replies - thank you all (nearly all!). So much food for thought - am digesting!

OP posts:
Apl · 29/08/2022 23:24

Totally agree OP!

I’ve been watching the Netflix documentary Keep Sweet. It’s like the Taliban, but in Texas. A timely reminder of the way some groups of men treat women and girls when they think they can get away with it.

Datun · 30/08/2022 02:58

Completely agree Roaring. It's misogyny. And yes, sometimes it's entirely unconscious. Some men don't even notice how they're using us. We're that irrelevant.

And 'Living quietly as a woman' is still treating women like sticking plasters. Because there's no such thing of course.

Being 'quiet' about it only sounds even remotely acceptable because the very concept of 'woman' has 'service human' baked in.

Would other concepts work? Living quietly as a doctor? Wears a white coat and stethoscope, but doesn't akcherly need to treat people. Or living quietly as a priest. Just doesn't need to give sermons. Or a black person?

Or toddler, paraplegic, wolfhound?

Of course not.

No-one would think the appropriation of these even as concepts, never mind the actuality, anything other than batshit. And certainly not the potential go-to solution to a mental health issue.

But living as a woman? Yes, ok, if it's done quietly.

Because Elastoplast.

Jewel1968 · 30/08/2022 06:59

Not sure. Will have to think about what you say. For me I find the propping up of stereotypes to be problematic. A person who likes to wear what is socially considered to be feminine clothing must be a woman and if they aren't biologically a woman they must somehow become one. They can't just be a person who likes to wear whatever. And society likes this because it aligns with the rules of society. The same for those wanting to wear what is socially considered to be masculine.

I am not sure if that is misogyny. Will have to think on that.

I am one of those people who don't have a strong internal sense of my sex/gender which makes it harder for me to understand. I have had phases of wearing masculine clothing and phases of wearing feminine clothing (as dictated by society). I guess if I were younger I might want to apply a label to myself but I simply see it as me navigating societal rules and wanting to break them here and there.

Not sure if this has added to the debate. And do you think misogyny is also linked to a person born female wanting to present as male? Or is that something else?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/08/2022 08:09

And do you think misogyny is also linked to a person born female wanting to present as male? Or is that something else?

I think it's often part of it, yes.