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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genderism as a patriarchal ideology

77 replies

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 26/08/2022 23:09

This is based on something I posted on another thread which has since been deleted as it was about a particular individual. But the point is a universal one so I hope that as a concept, directed at an ideology rather than any one individual, it can stand.

It is my sincere belief that biologically male people claiming to be women/girls is in itself an act of gross misogyny. People who refer to them as “women” of any kind are colluding with that act of gross misogyny. Whether out of internalised misogyny if they’re female themselves or plain old male-supremacist-based misogyny if they’re male.


It’s misogynistic bigotry. Misogynistic bigots, whether the old fashioned overt sort, or the new fangled covert sort, are not people I see as being worthy of respect. Pandering to them by pretending some biologically male people really are women and calling them “she” is as bad as supporting outright MRAs, and ultimately on a continuum with supporting groups who actively suppress women’s and girls rights, like the Taliban.

It’s all founded on the patriarchal principle of seeing female people as fundamentally lesser than male people, as service humans here to facilitate the lives of the “real” humans, the male ones.


Genderism cannot be seen apart from the context of thousands of years of patriarchy and oppression, control and abuse of the female sex by the male sex. This context is absolutely fundamental and crucial, as is the fact that male oppression, control and abuse of female people is very much ongoing in all parts of the world, not just a historical occurrence.

Members of the oppressor class appropriating the identity and hard-fought-for rights and protections, such as they are, of the oppressed class is in itself an act of oppression. Of control and abuse.

It is impossible for it to be benign as long as there is a power imbalance between male people and female people - and the reality of the biological differences between us means there will always be a power imbalance there, even if we did somehow one day achieve an impossibly utopian state where all the socio-economic power imbalances had been levelled. (And such a day shows no sign of arriving any time soon.)

No woman with an ounce of self respect, or an ounce of care for the rights and safety of women and girls, should be colluding with this massively offensive and damaging shite. It is the same old patriarchy in supposedly modern vestments. It needs to be challenged every bit as much as all the more obvious manifestations of patriarchy. Genderism is essentially inimical to women’s rights, dignity and humanity.

Anyone care to flesh this out some more?

OP posts:
QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 01:01

Excellent posts, RoaringtoLangClegintheDark.

Yes, totally.
Women have had millennia of being men's support systems.

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 01:01

Trans ideology gives males the right to describing reality the way they want, while banning women from describing reality the way they experience it. That's misogyny.

QuiteLikePipistrelleBats · 27/08/2022 01:06

The historical and current slavery of women, worldwide, needs to be addressed; but it never is.

thatisnotyours · 27/08/2022 01:26

This reply has been deleted

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BellaAmorosa · 27/08/2022 01:39

Great thread, @RoaringtoLangClegintheDark
Helen Joyce put it well when she said that women are just set dressing on the stage for men. Items of furniture, wall hangings etc.

Waitwhat23 · 27/08/2022 01:51

I've always thought that the NPC analogy is interesting - that misogynists see women as non character players on the stage of life - there to facilitate the hero's quest and to be background. They don't see women as persons in their own right, with their own experiences/thoughts/feelings but as being there to fulfil a function.

NotBadConsidering · 27/08/2022 04:57

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 01:01

Trans ideology gives males the right to describing reality the way they want, while banning women from describing reality the way they experience it. That's misogyny.

Stark example: the deletion of the thread discussing Eddie Izzard possibly standing for parliament as a woman.

Amelanchier · 27/08/2022 08:01

I am broadly in agreement with you. How do you address the counter-argument that people don't identify into the class that they hate?

Wellies54 · 27/08/2022 08:01

For some, I think it's a lack of understanding, empathy, self awareness, for example, transwomen who feel happier dressed in traditional women's clothing and just want to live quietly as a woman but can't understand why other women don't view them as women. They have such a strong idea of what a 'woman' is related to clothes, mannerisms etc and can't see how female/ feminine are different. More recently though this movement has been hijacked by more blatant misogyny. By men who aggressively demand the right to women's safe spaces and know full well what they are doing, using the trans movement as a useful way of putting women down.

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 08:09

Interesting thread. I'm curious why it was reported - on what basis? 'Women are discussing feminism'?

Blister · 27/08/2022 08:13

Amelanchier · 27/08/2022 08:01

I am broadly in agreement with you. How do you address the counter-argument that people don't identify into the class that they hate?

For the same reasons that some women support giving away women's rights.
Which do they have less respect for? The other or themselves?

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 08:16

It's sometimes said MTF people are reacting strongly against masculinity, rejecting it. This implies womanhood is just an absence of masculinity. Terra nulla, and yes, women are often not ascribed agency.

A quick glance at Twitter shows some MTF people are thrilled at the idea of 'abasing' themselves. I suppose that is precisely acknowledging the power imbalance.

This subject is hard to discuss because of the large elephant in the room that is motivation.

Blister · 27/08/2022 08:19

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 08:16

It's sometimes said MTF people are reacting strongly against masculinity, rejecting it. This implies womanhood is just an absence of masculinity. Terra nulla, and yes, women are often not ascribed agency.

A quick glance at Twitter shows some MTF people are thrilled at the idea of 'abasing' themselves. I suppose that is precisely acknowledging the power imbalance.

This subject is hard to discuss because of the large elephant in the room that is motivation.

This. This is it for me.

The concept of unmanly.

There's something you can do that makes you less of a man.

It is the most alpha male bullshit.

Reminds me of the days of being unladylike.

Goosygandy · 27/08/2022 08:20

I don't think there's a homogenous group of people who transition. Some I believe are genuinely distressed about feeling they were born as the wrong gender. Some are generally distressed in life and see transitioning as being an answer to existing mental health issues. They get a lot of attention and support for this in a way that doesn't exist for other mental health issues, and it's terrible that mental health issues for other things do not attract the same kind of funding and support.

And there are some that literally hate women and it's a kind of weird way of obliterating us and taking over our support systems: our DV groups, our sexual abuse helplines, our women's groups, our online support. I don't want someone who has grown up as a man being the woman's officer and running services to prioritise TW. I don't want them to be running women's refuges and stopping women having safe spaces.

Equally, those vulnerable TW and TM need support services, but this should not happen by taking over those set up by women and stopping them from having any kind of voice. The irony is not lost. And for some reason the loudest people in support of this can be other women who somehow forget that there are many vulnerable women who also need services dedicated to them and whose history and needs are different.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 09:12

Genderism cannot be seen apart from the context of thousands of years of patriarchy and oppression, control and abuse of the female sex by the male sex. This context is absolutely fundamental and crucial, as is the fact that male oppression, control and abuse of female people is very much ongoing in all parts of the world, not just a historical occurrence.

Members of the oppressor class appropriating the identity and hard-fought-for rights and protections, such as they are, of the oppressed class is in itself an act of oppression. Of control and abuse.

It is impossible for it to be benign as long as there is a power imbalance between male people and female people - and the reality of the biological differences between us means there will always be a power imbalance there, even if we did somehow one day achieve an impossibly utopian state where all the socio-economic power imbalances had been levelled. (And such a day shows no sign of arriving any time soon.)

I completely agree with you, Roaring, but this is especially salient. Genderism is just one manifestation of this, at this time. The dismissal of women's voices and concerns around this issue is pure misogyny.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 09:14

I think framing all men who wish to transition as 'misogynistic bigots' a bit strong.

I don't think you necessarily need to look at it at a personal level. People have all kinds of roles within an oppressive system.

Caroffee · 27/08/2022 09:20

Yes. I have long thought that transgender ideology is actually patriarchy in disguise (presumably wearing a dress). The level of aggression displayed by proponents of this ideology against biological women and anyone who opposes their views is evidence of this and it is just another form of male violence against women and a way to undermine women's rights.

JellySaurus · 27/08/2022 09:21

Amelanchier · 27/08/2022 08:01

I am broadly in agreement with you. How do you address the counter-argument that people don't identify into the class that they hate?

They identify into their perception of the class. The actual population of that class is not relevant.

They hate women for gatekeeping. They hate women for 'womaning' better than them. They hate women for getting away with not 'womaning', yet remaining accepted as women. They hate women for making it obvious that males cannot pass. They hate women for having what they (these males) have not got.

Beamur · 27/08/2022 09:29

If you strip it back, every push and pull in genderism is framed by patriarchal assumptions and power imbalance.

Baaaaaa · 27/08/2022 09:38

MangyInseam · 26/08/2022 23:58

I don't know. I think you are drawing a lot of very abstracted connections.

You could certainly say I think that someone who accepts this ideology has a vision of womanhood that is shallow and performative, essentially a construct. And that it therefore dehumanizes.

I am not totally happy with characterizing that as necessarily misogyny, it seems to me that in practice it more often stems from a kind of narcissism. Which in the end isn't really elevating any class of things over another class, but rather the self above all things.

Is that the same impulse patriarchy comes from? I am not sure, I think patriarchy is a pretty meaningless concept unless it's tied very tightly to a material explanation, it becomes a bit like talking about the treasury of merit. It lends itself to fanciful and extensive expansions on the theme and the social sciences need to be careful of fanciful ideas.

But if we said that it simply means the historical tendency for women to be more vulnerable to certain types of exploitation, and the potential for societies to bake that in to a greater or lesser degree, I think what I might say is that it represents an example where social institutions meant to protect women from vulnerability are being undermined. In order to advantage a certain group of people - not necessarily men as a whole, though.

But in some sense I'm not sure that really gets us very far. I don't know that it really helps us unpack how this ideology came to look plausible to some many people, including especially people who should be able to see through it. unpicking that involves things like looking how other intellectual movements of various types came together to create an environment where people could take these ideas seriously. Which for the most part wasn't about disempowering women and in some cases was even an attempt to assert female equality.

This is an excellent analysis.

I think there are some cases where the motivation is pure misogyny, a socially acceptable way to stick the boot into upity women, but more often than not its driven by narcissism or a cultural shift to self obsession which favours concepts of identity and renders the wider impact on others, especially outgroups, unimportant.

I think there is an unhealthy dose of band wagon jumping, sheep like following.

Some are in it for power and would do the same no matter the ideology.

A very few have a vested interest in easier access to their sexual targets.

I am prepared to give a few people the benefit of the doubt motivation wise. They genuinely believe this is the solution to gender inequality. It is flawed and wrong and actively harmful and relies on believing shallow stereotypes, but the end goal of making things between the sexes more equal is there.

tootiredtobother · 27/08/2022 10:05

Roaring - so very well said
who ever posted that it was hate speech, oh please get over yourself, read the post again and really think about the points made

CousinGregg · 27/08/2022 10:36

Mental illness yes, not always misogyny

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 11:02

I suppose it might be useful to ask why the T has been appended to the 'LGB'?

How is T a sexuality or sexual orientation?

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2022 11:04

Also - we talk about how the word 'woman' has been erased.

Conversely, what happens when we are not allowed to use the word 'man'?

How are women's discussions, conversations and feminism impacted if there are some males we are not allowed to name as men?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2022 11:04

not always misogyny

I think it's that this idea that women means certain regressive stereotypes has gained ground is testament to the sexism/misogyny in society.