Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

OP posts:
OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:32

FunnyBeaux · 14/08/2022 17:50

WADR this, and a PP, is batshit. You don't own the copyright of your name. There can be 20 'Peter's in a family and they're all individuals with their own name - they're not sharing one big one.

You know that many cultures/families will name children after grandparents or other relatives, so you'd easily get several namesakes in the same family.

I doing think my point of view is at all batshit.
And of course I know that children are commonly called after grandparents etc.

Just saying that I do empathise with someone who wouldn't want a niece or nephew to be given the same name as them, because I wouldn't like this either. And no, I don't think I own my name. But there are lots of names my sibling could choose without using mine.

Others have said the same. It's not that unusual to feel like this. I'd have thought it might be a bit different if you're actually not using the name yourself anymore, but it seems maybe not.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:38

Gosh no need to get so angry @Aberration! It's just the same turn of phrase used every time is a bit of a repeat pattern. I'm sorry you've been doxxed by TRAs. Withholding some of your identity and not using the same name across different sites is a good idea.

Anyway, this isn't an ordinary name. It's the name of a brilliant female ancestor. A suffragette. The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

I think it's absolutely fine in those circumstances for their sister to want to reclaim the name.

Wellies54 · 14/08/2022 18:52

In a way, giving the baby the name might distance it from the brother. At the moment everyone in the family associates it with the brother 's past but as the child grows up, she will grow into this name and it will be her's to own and to take on the continuation of the family tradition.

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:56

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

Doesn't want the name, doesn't want anyone else to have the name.

It's controlling and narcissistic behaviour.

And we all need to stop pandering to it.

Twawmyarse · 14/08/2022 18:59

I've always quite liked Richard Madeley (scuttles off in shame..)

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:00

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

What do you mean they do want the name. That doesnt make sense. Its a 'deadnam' as far as they're concerned

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:06

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:56

Doesn't want the name, doesn't want anyone else to have the name.

It's controlling and narcissistic behaviour.

And we all need to stop pandering to it.

I don't see it as such I have to say, maybe because I think, if given a choice in the matter, I'd very much dislike sharing a name with a close family member. And I'm not a narcissist I assure you 😁

It's clear the transman still feels that this name is part of their identity. I think this is nothing to do with whether the person is trans or not really. It's a separate issue.

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:12

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:00

What do you mean they do want the name. That doesnt make sense. Its a 'deadnam' as far as they're concerned

Surely if the name meant absolutely nothing to them (positive or negative) they wouldn't care who used it? It does have a lot of meaning for them in some way and I think that should be respected by a sibling.

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:15

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:12

Surely if the name meant absolutely nothing to them (positive or negative) they wouldn't care who used it? It does have a lot of meaning for them in some way and I think that should be respected by a sibling.

People like this make out they are triggered or upset by hearing the name, thats whats its about. And as someone said above its controlling and narcissistic.

You dont get to control what your own sibling calls their own child!!!

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 19:20

Ironically if the sibling hadn't dropped the name the sister might not have felt the need to keep it in the family (as it was already in the family)

Clymene · 14/08/2022 19:37

So let's get this straight.

It's a venerable ancestor's name. It's a name they were given in honour of the ancestor but they don't want it and are angry if anyone calls them by that name.

But despite the fact they don't want it, they don't want anyone else to have it either.

It's like one of those kids at soft play who are bored with the kiddy car but have a tantrum if anyone else wants to use it in case they change their minds

newrubylane · 14/08/2022 19:53

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

Actually, quite the opposite. Someone in my family gave her son the same 'full' name as an older family member. The elder has generally always gone by the shortened version. The child now goes almost exclusively by the full version because his parents couldn't get used to calling him by the short name as it already 'belonged' to the older family member. It causes no confusion at all.

Honestly, no one owns a name and particularly not if they have already rejected said name. I can't imagine feeling anything but flattered if someone else in the family had my name. And indeed someone in the younger generation of my partner's family does, named long before he met me. At no point have I considered demanding they change the name. That would be insane.

teezletangler · 14/08/2022 20:03

Hmm. I usually have no time for narcissistic TRA demands, but it's quite unusual to give your child the same first name as your sibling. My sister and I are close, but if she announced that she had given her baby my name, I'd think it was weird and object. (My DD does have the same middle name as my sister as a family connection, but middle names feel different.)

This situation does feel a bit goady. And yes I wonder if she would choose the name if the sibling was still using it...

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 20:18

teezletangler · 14/08/2022 20:03

Hmm. I usually have no time for narcissistic TRA demands, but it's quite unusual to give your child the same first name as your sibling. My sister and I are close, but if she announced that she had given her baby my name, I'd think it was weird and object. (My DD does have the same middle name as my sister as a family connection, but middle names feel different.)

This situation does feel a bit goady. And yes I wonder if she would choose the name if the sibling was still using it...

Lots of children are named after uncles and aunties, its not the slightest bit unusual and usually very flattering.

Marynotsocontrary · 14/08/2022 20:34

I can't imagine feeling anything but flattered if someone else in the family had my name.
My brother and SIL briefly considered my name for their baby daughter. I somehow hated the idea (never said, though I might if they had given it more lengthy consideration, I'm not sure).

And indeed someone in the younger generation of my partner's family does, named long before he met me. At no point have I considered demanding they change the name. That would be insane.
Yes it would, but that's a very different situation to a sibling giving their child your name.

WarriorN · 14/08/2022 20:50

About 3/5 of the women on my mothers side of the family all have the same name.

Such an element of control in all this.
Controlling your body, names, how people interact with you (pronouns) what people think of you (lie about your sex.)

WarriorN · 14/08/2022 20:51

Not about, actually 3 out of 5!

Athenajm80 · 14/08/2022 22:37

I wonder what would happen further down the line if "he" de-transed? Would the name be taken back, would a new name be chosen? Maybe the transman is already having doubts so wants their name kept free in case they want it back later?🤔

Totally agree with pp who said about a toddler not wanting to play with a toy but no one else can play with it either. Very dog in the manger attitude

tootiredtobother · 14/08/2022 22:42

have not read the full thread but I remember Madeley being very TWAW. so hes flip flop' in again, was also 'climate change is not real', about 10 years ago.

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 23:23

Has he a view on TMAM? Oh wait, no one ever asks that.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 15/08/2022 00:36

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

There really wouldn't be loads of conversations. The context in which the name is used would be clear.

You sound very precious.

Marynotsocontrary · 15/08/2022 02:13

There really wouldn't be loads of conversations. The context in which the name is used would be clear.

Not always.
I have four cousins with the same name. They all use the full name, no nicknames or shortenings, and two share a surname too. If any of them come up in conversation we always have to clarify who we're speaking about using either the surname or a parents' name.

Beowulfa · 15/08/2022 10:40

I'm genuinely surprised that so many people wouldn't like a sibling using their name for a niece/nephew. I'd be quietly flattered and would then get the fuck on with my life.

Is this the modern obsession with unique equating to "special"? A friend of mine was taken aback on discovering her daughter was one of 4 Isabellas in her Reception class....

Notmanybroadbeans · 15/08/2022 11:07

Beowulfa · 15/08/2022 10:40

I'm genuinely surprised that so many people wouldn't like a sibling using their name for a niece/nephew. I'd be quietly flattered and would then get the fuck on with my life.

Is this the modern obsession with unique equating to "special"? A friend of mine was taken aback on discovering her daughter was one of 4 Isabellas in her Reception class....

Well, it's clearly a name with baggage, isn't it?
But even if it weren't - if the sibling still used the name - then it is an unusual thing to do nowadays. It's almost like they've forgotten you're already called that.